Transcript: Episode 303
303. Emails
Welcome to the System Speak podcast. If you would like to support our efforts at sharing our story, fighting stigma about Dissociative Identity Disorder, and educating the community and the world about trauma and dissociation, please go to our website at www.systemspeak.org, where there is a button for donations and you can offer a one time donation to support the podcast or become an ongoing subscriber. You can also support us on Patreon for early access to updates and what’s unfolding for us. Simply search for Emma Sunshaw on Patreon. We appreciate the support, the positive feedback, and you sharing our podcast with others. We are also super excited to announce the release of our new online community - a safe place for listeners to connect about the podcast. It feels like any other social media platform where you can share, respond, join groups, and even attend events with us, including the new monthly meetups that start this month. Go to our web page at www.systemspeak.org to join the community. We're excited to see you there.
[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
[Note: The contents of emails being read in this episode are in italics.]
We have emails and packages. Our first package is actually from our friend Lisa, who sent us the art kit. And it is another box with a little treat inside, and some paint brushes and a marker. So thank you Lisa for sending that. That's super sweet.
And then we got a package. [Sound of paper crinkling] Oh my goodness. It's wrapped in yellow paper with the most beautiful little butterflies on it. It has a white ribbon. And then it says “Be wild.” Oh my goodness. It's a journal with watercolor pages and quotes. Oh, it's beautiful! “You were not made to be tame. You are an earthquake, shaking loose everything that is not soul.” Wow. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much.
There's a letter it says: I have written in briefly a few times. Most recently I followed your Instagram and I sent a message somehow to you. Oh, you guys, we miss Instagram so much. That was working for us, posting pictures and poems. And super frustrated that we had to take that down for safety reasons. That's so violating because that was really really working as an expressive outlet, and it's super frustrating we had to take that down. So now we are not on any social media right now.
This says: However I didn't want to love bomb you by going back and liking each one. That can be overwhelming and possibly a little scary. I know I might, or some part of me might, experience it that way. Oh my goodness. You're so sensitive. That's so kind. You're being so careful with us. But all that aside, I've been holding these little cards. Sorry JohnMark, they aren't exactly badges. [Laughter] Oh, oh, that is both funny, funny, funny, and also it hurts my heart because we don't have badges anymore. And I miss him being around, and I missed that freedom and peace that he brought us, and-. Oh, even just reading his name, so much comes up for me with a Kelly from the past, and [Sigh] it hurts my heart. It hurts my heart. It has really changed things. Because he was the one who like kept us prepared and safe. And without him, we have been a hot mess you all, and it does not work. Without him it's hard. But-. Oh, okay. We will save that for therapy.
Okay. It says: But all that aside, I've been holding these cards for you all. So I'm finally sitting down to send them. Technically I'm love bombing you now. Oh, that's so sweet. System speak, you've helped me tremendously both in the present moment and the ripple effects of that into the future. Thank you. Everyone, it is so encouraging every time that we hear that the podcast was helpful, because we really, really are never sure. [Laughter] Or anytime we might start to be confident, then something happens where it feels like, “Okay, now we've blown it.” And so that reassurance to just keep going has absolutely made it possible. Thank you.
This one says: Emma M, I'm a little confused by names. But for you who do the mothering, thank you for showing me that it's possible for me to have a family someday. Oh! That you mother and parent in such an honorable compassionate and loving way truly gives me hope that someday I can be a mom too. Your family sounds beautiful and lovely in all its trauma and pain and the ups and downs. Oh, that is precious. That will make me cry. Also, you have really nice handwriting. [Laughter] Whichever part, or whoever, whatever person wrote this, that's just beautiful handwriting. Just, you know. Molly, you encourage my own faith. I'm so glad you're here and that you are connected to something so vast and amazing and that you help keep everyone going? Right? What would we do without that? Dr. E, I want to be as brave and bold as you in the coming week-. Oh, wow. They tell me some exciting professional work they're gonna get to do. Good for you. Yes, we would love to collaborate with you. JohnMark, welcome back, buddy. You are so courageous, and I would share my gluten free chips and some salsa with you anytime. Sasha, you're amazing. Thank you so much for starting the podcast. I enjoy your sassy spirit. And I'm always glad to get your perspective. Taylor and Cassie, I appreciate the episodes you've talked about boundaries and feelings of all kinds. It takes strength internally to feel and know these things, and I'm grateful you protect your system and advocate for others to do the same. All of this is so kind. For the husband, your presence as a husband and a father in Emma's life and the outside children, respectively, is a blessing. As someone who's been hurt and betrayed myself, I am grateful for the hope that you give that not all men are cruel and insensitive. that some are kind, gentle, compassionate, and understanding, and even drop truth bombs like Skittles in a rainbow. [Laughter] That's funny. Littles, I don't know your names, but I know you're there, and you're safe and protected from the podcast. But I admire your courage because without you there would be no Emma Sunshaw or System Speak, and the whole wide world would miss out on such a beautiful person. Outside kids, you are so inspiring. I'm leaving some blank love bombs here so you can get some yourself. If I’ve forgotten anyone, I do apologize. And I'm still listening to episodes and catching up on the podcast. I know how much you love women who run with the wolves. I also know how much you journal and use notebooks. So when I saw this, I thought of you. I especially enjoy the quotes inside, so I hope you do also, and that it inspires you on your journey to honor the life within you and its wildest purists nature. With much love and light. Oh my goodness. It's a lovely journal, and we are so grateful. That really truly was very kind. Thank you so much. I don't even have words.
BJ says: For the first time ever, I could not listen to a podcast all the way through. It was Therapeutic Relationship, Part Two where my head is at right now. And if you address this later in the podcast, my apologies. But as someone who has been a mental health provider for years, there are times where I recognize that I am not a good fit for a client. Abandonment issues or not, and I do try to consult, problem solve, and discuss with appropriate clinical team members this very thing. I hang in there. And of course you wouldn't know my work ethic or how I work. But when I do stay on the clinical team, the burnout intensifies tremendously. I had someone tell me that since I have all this experience, I should be able to manage. So now that adds shame to feeling incompetent to having to try to help someone in need. When it feels like the years you have been working with them hasn't been effective, you feel awful, alone, trapped, and the client deserves a clinician who is connected and present. They deserve the best care independent of a clinical issue, hence the feeling as if I can no longer fill that role for them. I will save you the critical trouble. I feel like a failure. Those years of experience carries the secondary trauma as well. It hurts. These feelings are exactly why decent people leave our field. Add to that all the paperwork, expectations, high caseloads, all the different treatment teams expectations, all client needs, it is not only overwhelming, but I wonder how it is even humanly possible. There is nothing left but the shadow of a mental health provider who goes home every night and cries themselves to sleep. I hear you. I have been there. I have done that. I have experienced that and wrestled with that. Even when to change venues, like from working in the ER to working residential to going back to community mental health, or home based, or school based, or on telehealth now with the pandemic, and do we continue with telehealth or not, and changing platforms and all these things. It is really, really hard, but absolutely critical and necessary work for clinicians to care well for themselves, so that they can care well for those who they are a fit to work with. And I think that's very powerful. And you had so much courage to share that so vulnerably. Thank you, BJ.
Bob says: Dear Emma. I've tried to contact you, and I'm trying again. My wife has DID and is in treatment therapy. I have listened to almost all of your podcasts, and I have learned a lot from them. I have a couple of questions. Oh, absolutely, Bob. You can write in, ask any questions you like, and we will be happy to talk about them.
Lisa says: I've just listened to Challenging the Critic. I am so happy you have this therapist. This therapist does seem to have capacity for all of you and seems like she has the tools to help you on the other side of the river and the island. I can foresee exponential healing forthcoming. I am so happy for you. Your bravery and determination to protect self paid off and I can't wait to hear more. This was a hard path. Thank you for all that you share. Oh, Lisa, thank you for your encouragement again. I'm so grateful for you.
The Vega System says: I hope you were all faring well. Congrats on being fully vaccinated and having more of your family be vaccinated. I've been listening to the podcast and have been thinking of you regularly. I've had a lot going on in my personal life, and I've wanted to email you to share my thoughts, encourage you, ask questions, or comment on the podcast and your book, but haven't had the chance. Our daughter recently got diagnosed with a developmental delay. She's over a year behind in her communication, and is going through somewhat of an intensive evaluation process to see if she qualifies for services. I thought I would share. I feel like you can probably relate to what's going on at some level. There has been so much worry, but when I really take a step back and look, I can see she's actually emotionally and physically healthy and securely attached. Thank goodness. Oh my goodness. That says so much about you as a mom. And I think you all have done an excellent job caring for her or that wouldn't even be the case, regardless of what other challenges she has. That's amazing.
It is easy to project my own feelings about my childhood trauma onto this situation, like “nothing will work,” ‘there's nobody there to help,” “she'll have to go through this all alone.” I'm proud of us for recognizing that her experience is going to be different from ours. Whoa, that is powerful. You just blew me off the water. Like I'm going to have to think about that. You just said: I'm proud of us for recognizing that her experience is going to be different from ours, and there will be people to help her, parents included. She is seen. I just listened to Challenging the Critic. I'm really glad this therapist sees you and you can feel safe with her. That is so huge. We're so happy that you have found another therapist. It also brings us so much joy and fills our heart that you're making new friends, colleagues and connections. We wish for that when we ourselves have a little more space in our lives for it. Thank you for sharing your book with us and the world. We're reading it slowly, like you recommended, and taking care of ourselves, like you recommended. Some of our abuse is similar to yours, so it can be triggering for some of us. We're all excited about your offerings on Patreon and the new online community. We plan to make an account when we get the chance. Stay well and keep healing. Thank you so much Vega System. We needed that encouragement so much, and that was very tender what you shared about your daughter. It is so difficult. We feel that, absolutely.
This one says: My name is Karen. My therapist just gave me your website info. Thank you. The idea that I have DID is very frightening to me. It seems more and more likely, and really is an explanation for many things. I am looking for a support group or some kind of mentor or support outside of therapy. That is great because we have opened the community and you can link to that from systemspeak.org. I hope you can find this, and you are welcome to join us there.
I'm so excited that it has been helpful and supportive for people already, and we haven't even announced it publicly. This is May 24, and it's already getting started. And we will not even announce it until July. And I am so grateful that there have been so many people who already noticed that the links were live, and have been trying it out, and helping me work out glitches because tech stuff is not our thing. So building a new community online, a whole platform was pretty epic. But I'm proud of us. I'm grateful to the helpers. And it has given us a place so that we can come together as a support, and we are grateful. And it's been amazing. Thank you so much.
Shelley says: I just finished reading If Tears Were Prayers. Oh, you read our book. That's so great. Thank you for telling us. I also watched the DID Awareness Day video today and realize that the moderator is the author of If Tears Were Prayers. I have loved reading this book. At first it was hard and very upsetting, but I knew I needed to finish it. Her story is my story in many ways. Thank you for writing this book. I look forward to checking out the System Speak podcast next. Oh my goodness. I'm so glad you found it, and welcome!
Kat says: Ms. Sasha, Dr. E., Courtney, and all of you. First off, nothing in this email feels super confidential. And I think it's okay to be read on the air if you want to. Oh, thanks for letting us know. I mean, we always assume that, but we're careful when someone says not to read it. But I appreciate the extra layer of consent. That feels good for all of us. Thank you so much for your podcast. I've been listening for almost two years because my girlfriend disclosed to me that she has DID. I googled and googled and googled trying to find resources. Your podcast is the number one best resource I have come across. Oh, wow. Thank you so much. I'm glad you found it. And then it's been helpful.
They said: As a trauma survivor myself, your podcast and your book have been so immensely helpful. I end up talking about the things I learned here in my therapy sessions. I started listening before the pandemic. As it was unfolding, I kept checking that there were new episodes being posted because I got so worried about you, especially after your episodes about Africa, and then being a crisis therapist in the wildfires. I'm so glad that you made it through. It really was an honor to be a part of Courtney's journey as well. I love how no nonsense she is and how protective she is over all of you.
Today, I listened to your episode with your son Alex about trauma and boxes. What a smart kid you have. And also I love the tenderness that you show him. I cry at every single episode that feature your kiddos. You and the husband are such amazing parents. I feel like I get a little bit of healing when I listened to those episodes. That's so kind. That's very kind. I mean, we're normal parents, and we have some days that are better than others, but we are trying so hard, you guys. We are trying so hard. This morning, I am just worn out. And so I was very aware that my affect was too flat. And like no matter what I tried, like, I couldn't get myself to brighten up and give them a better energy. And I just said, “I'm tired. This face is a tired face. It is not an angry face.” And like just had to explicitly clarify because of my mom guilt and their triggers. Like, it's like, we're normal human parents. And that's hard. Sometimes it's hard to do it well, intentionally, instead of zoning out. But we do adore them and we are trying so hard.
Just out of curiosity about your intro song. I grew up in the same religion that you are. Your song sounds like As Sisters In Zion. I'm wondering if I'm right. I find such great allegory to it because there are so many parts of you working together in earnest endeavor, as the song goes. If that is the song, did you all choose it on purpose? That's not the song, but I know what song you're referencing. And there's a similar in harmonic progression that goes with that. But it is a song without words from Mendelssohn, actually. And I know someone asked that before, but we didn't have the words, like access to that part, to that alter, that we did not have access to that person to be able to ask the question, but now I know the answer. So it's a particular movement and a not exact, like kind of an adaption of that. So that's all the musical words that I know to answer the question. [Laughter] But at least we're making progress. But that is a good song. And I love I love, love, love, the idea of that song applied to this. Kat, I think that is so powerful, and there's something there, and we're gonna play with that just a little bit. For those who don't know the song, it's pretty interesting, talking about working together to comfort and to strengthen and to care for others around us, while also having the confidence to know that we ourselves are loved, and that we are capable of loving. And I think that that's super beautiful in this context of healing. And I love that you brought that up on the podcast. Thank you so much.
They said: I hope this next question isn't too triggering, because it's therapy related. I wonder if you might have advice about how to best support my girlfriend. She had a major rupture with her last therapist and doesn't trust anybody. Oh, so that steps all over my toes. And I feel that. I feel that so deeply. And I don't know if we are even stable enough yet to answer the question. Because we are still pretty raw ourselves. I feel like the rupture that we went through, and has continued over the last year, and two years really, really just destroyed us. I know that physically, we are here—still alive—sometimes by default. And I know that we are pulling through to the other side of that struggle as far as surviving it. But it's also the closest call that we've had in a long time.
And so there's this surreal experience where on the one hand, we are physically here, we have this amazing support system that we worked so hard to build, we live in this beautiful place surrounded by nature and we have access to swings and hammocks and running water and fountains and the animals and our family that we have chosen and created literally ourselves. Every single person in our family we have picked out so to speak. And so in some ways we are so privileged, and so blessed, and so like fortunate in that way, whatever word you want to use to describe it. It's profound.
And at the same time, we are also surviving a pandemic. And the kids get school lunches from the schools because that Act passed. And so they get free lunches from the school. But there are days that I don't know what I'm going to eat. And there are days where can we go out in public, or can we not? Is it safe, or is it not? Is the Coronavirus still around? And now it's worse with Delta. Like, is it better, is it not? What is going on? And so that doesn't feel safe.
And now the husband is gone caring for his family, his parents, which is exactly right and good and as things should be, and is entirely normal and developmentally appropriate with healthy families. But for us, it's bringing up a lot of triggers and a lot of relational trauma aspects.
And then with the therapist piece, losing that Kelly really really destroyed things internally. And so in some ways, we have had to choose to live, first of all, literally. Like, I don't want to trigger people or talk about it more in depth in detail because I don't want to like frighten people or trigger them. But it was a conscious choice that we had to make. And I don't, I don't want to talk about that more right now. But now that we are here, and now that this is where we are, and this is our life, and this is what we're trying to do, and we have a new therapist. And we're choosing to try to stay alive, and choosing to try to engage in the ways we can. It is very, I don't know, tenuous at best. And I'm not saying that we're not safe. But I'm talking about your question about trusting people after a rupture like that. We have several times made attempts to re-engage. And when that's not been received well or responded to, it makes it harder. And I don't mean-. Like, there's no drama, and I don't mean like, oh, my heart won't forgive or let go or move on. It's not about that. It’s nothing like that. I have no ill feelings toward anyone. I have no, like, I'm not upset or angry about these things.
What I'm talking about is more like, it's a lesson learned. Like, it's one thing as a child not to trust because these are experiences over and over again of being abused or violated or betrayed or those things. But when you're an adult, and there's a rupture like that is, especially in a relationship where you have poured your heart and soul into believing that you are safe, that the environment is safe, and that the things you share are safe. And then that is taken away from you because the environment is gone, like the pandemic, even if nothing malicious happened, right? That's a big, that's a big thing to sort through internally. And when there is a rupture, whether that was malicious or not, which is a huge piece that we have just learned and have been sharing and talking about. Even when it's not malicious, it's okay to acknowledge the impact of that. And I don't mean you have to get stuck on that, or hold onto it in a way. But we do learn from that. And when there are ruptures that cannot be resolved, then what it feels like is you were either wrong for needing that connection in the first place, which is not true, but it feels like it's true. Or you were in the wrong place to have that need met. Because that person, even if they're not malicious, did not have capacity, or did not have their own internal work done to be in the place to do so. Or whatever that looks like. Again, even when it's not malicious, those ruptures of it isn't safe, actually. Like, there's a difference between, I've never trusted before, and having solid evidence for why not to trust again. And it's really, really hard to transfer that into a broader, healthier context of learning more carefully when and how and with whom to trust, which is different than I can't trust at all.
And so I don't know that we are far enough ahead of the game on this topic to be able to even respond to it. Because in therapy, we would still shut down before we would switch. We would still turn off the camera, or leave the session, or shut down our video feed, or just not. Like, I literally can't speak or move. When I start to feel them close, it feels so dangerous. Because we shared so much with our Kelly before. And where we're at now, we are not able to talk to this Kelly. She, our therapist now is so good, and we have come so far in being able to re-engage in the process. But that wound is so fresh, and I don't know that it's one that can heal. I don't know that it's one that will heal. Because, I don't even know what to say. I'm going to have to think about it some more. And we're going to have to try. Like, I can't even talk about it still. It hurts so much. And it's so unresolved that I don't know where to put it.
You know what I think that we're doing in therapy? And I don't know if this is even real or a thing. But do you know, have you ever experience—those of you who are DID or have parts in some way—do you know, have any of you ever felt that feeling of actually like splitting. And I don't just mean meeting a new part that you didn't realize was there but other people knew about. I mean, there were maybe five times in my life where that moment in real life was so intense, what was happening in the trauma, that it was like I could feel my brain tearing. Now I know in real life that that is not what is happening physically to my brain. But that sensation is unlike anything else I could describe, and I don't know how to have words for it yet to talk about it more. But that feeling is like one kind of splitting. And every time after that there was a kind of splitting. And I feel like this has, the last two years, what it has led to is a new kind of new alter. And I don't know how to explain it or if I have words. I haven't even talked about this in therapy yet, and I can't believe I'm talking about it now in the middle of an emails podcast.
But what I feel like is happening with us is that we have had to come up with a brand new way, as it we are playdough, to create a new alter that is functioning and daily living-ish, but specifically for therapy. Um, and not just therapy, but a greater awareness. Like, instead of splitting off someone who doesn't know anything, it's more like we have to create a fronter, a host, someone who can be in front and navigate daily living, but with a different kind of protective focus on keeping the rest of us safely inside, because it is not been safe for us to be outside, and it has not been safe for us to connect with others. And so-.
It's interesting. I don't know. We will have to come back to this on the podcast, because I don't know that I'm even doing it justice, what I'm trying to explain or what I'm trying to share. And even awareness of it just makes my head hurt so much. Like, I can't even tell you. And so I'm gonna have to just keep reading. But I feel like it’s something big, and it's something happening right now. And it's something we need to come back to sooner than later. So we will share when we're able to.
But they say in their email: At one point she was accepting about having DID, and now she's gotten to the point where she's dissociated it away. That's interesting, because I feel like that's part of what I was trying to share. Like, before this rupture with our therapist, we were working very hard on taking turns in therapy, and participating in therapy, and lots of us went to therapy and sharing pieces. And that was huge for us. That was a huge progress that had never happened before. And then in real life, I mean, outside of therapy, we were also making our first friends. And with them, we would talk about the podcast, we would talk about therapy, we would talk about different ones of us, and what was going on, and what we needed, or building our own relationships with those persons. And it was actually the most integrated experience ever. Like if there was ever a time where I experienced “Oh, connection really is healing, this is true,” then that was the season that we experienced that.
But when we lost our Kelly, all of that went with it. And so even though we are very aware of DID, and even though parts of us know more about it than others, and parts of us know more of us than others, externally, we don't talk about it anymore at all with anyone. We don't talk about it with our friends. We don't talk about it in therapy. We don't talk about it with the husband. We've stopped talking about it with the children, other than normalizing trauma because their own issues, they need that as well. But we don't talk about it at all. Like, we have gone from feeling safe enough to learn how to be overt and trying to utilize that as part of our healing process, to more covert than we ever were before. And I would say the exceptions with that are the group of therapists that we meet with weekly who also have DID that we met through Healing Together. And the second exception is the Community that we're building with other people DID on our own platform that we can do safely as best we can, at least for now. We'll see how it goes. But even there we're being very cautious. But in those two settings of people who already have endured what we have endured of wrestling with DID, of wrestling with functioning with DID, of wrestling with relationships, when you are full of trauma and relationships themselves are so triggering and go so wrong. Like, my biggest thing now is that the relationships that I felt safest in, I now feel like a bad person, a crazy person, a drama person, a misunderstood person, and a dismissed person. And all of that is relational trauma. So no, we don't talk about anything like real or deep, and don't even talk about our kids or our family. Like, we are not disclosing anything. Because it is no longer safe. And it has been the most heartbreaking and grief-filled year of our life, two years now, like I can't even track it anymore. It just destroyed us emotionally and we barely barely survived it.
So I don't know what happened with your partner, or your girlfriend, and her therapist and what that rupture was. And I have tried really hard to talk around my rupture. But even that gets worse because then I'm talking about them on a podcast, which is terrible. But that's not what I mean. I'm referencing the birthday party, which was its separate trigger, and therapy, which was our own hot mess, and then the pandemic, which meant we couldn't resolve it. And now on the other side of that everyone else is okay, but we are not, and left out of it, which is right back to being on the other side of the lock door. And so we feel stupid and foolish for having ever tried in the first place. And it was like the betrayal is [pause], the betrayal is having told us that would be safe, and it was not at all. So if you want to take anger, or betrayal, or all of those pieces of the trauma, that's where it was. And I can't even fix it now, not because of the pandemic, but because that's like how I'm perceived. As like the crazy person who can't stay in a relationship, is only drama. And because I won't interact and because I have big feelings, and my pain still has been entirely dismissed, ignored and not acknowledged. Like there's no way to, that's, that's-. You can't repair that while the trauma itself is ongoing.
And so I don't know what her rupture is. But if the pain and the trauma of the rupture is still happening, even if it's in consequences playing out naturally by default, then there's not a repair yet. And you can't address it when there hasn't been a repair yet.
I don't know if any of that makes sense, or was just way too much information for me to be sharing in public.
They say in the email: I do my best not to push her because I don't think she needs that. Maybe this is actually a question for the husband instead. Oh, that's a good point. I can ask him and maybe we could talk about it on the podcast. Being the partner to someone with DID is so great. I feel so honored that her parts feel safe with me, especially the littles. And also sometimes it can be overwhelming to have my grown adult girlfriend all of the sudden become a three year old in the grocery store. I do my very best to keep her safe and covert because I know that when her adult parts come back, she gets super embarrassed and feels a lot of shame. Which is why I think she dissociates that she dissociates. I think that makes perfect sense. That makes perfect sense. I'd love any advice that you could share. Maybe what does the husband do that helps you and your littles feel a sense of safety?
[Pause]
Um, wow. That's another loaded question. So right now, especially the last two years, um, I don't think that he sees the littles. We were in a place to where he was starting to have some movies and snacks with JohnMark, and he was starting to get glimpses of littles, but they would not interact with him directly. And, like, it's so much more covert than that. Like, we're just not, we're just not in a good place, you guys. I mean, we're in a solid and safe place. But that's not the same as what we had. And I think, I think what makes it worse is that before we didn't know better, and so it wasn't as hard to be so isolated and alone in the trauma. But when we tried out having friends, and learned how powerful that can be in good ways, and then it was taken away from us, and we lost that Kelly, and we lost those friends that we almost had, that was like 1000 times worse because then we knew what we were missing. And so it was like just taunting us. Like it was an extra betrayal, an extra layer of betrayal there. I don't know, the trauma was complicated because of that.
But I think that the one time maybe that he sees littles, although they still don't interact directly, is that he reads to us before we go to sleep because then we sleep better. We used to sleep really well when we had our last Kelly. But when we lost her it has gone back to we almost don't sleep at all. I mean, like chaos and confusion and topsy turvy and that kind of mess. Like, just, I don't know. It was so disorienting and dysregulating. But he, but he reads like fairy tales to us at night. But we lay down, and we get like in our position for sleeping or whatever, and we get all tucked in the way we want, like ourselves—he doesn't do all of that, we do that ourselves—and then he reads to us, and we fall asleep while he's reading to us. And I know that there are some littles who listened to that. But I think that's as close as it gets.
Like, I am telling you, the walls are so thick right now even from me having access to them that I don't know how to recover from that. It has completely changed our life expectations and our presentation, and where we thought we would be, and how we thought our friendships were going to go. And I'm stuck. Like, it's a loop. It just keeps happening. And so there's a reenactment in there that we are still working out. And it's like abandonment and trauma and betrayal and trust and safety, like, all of our favorite things, right? It's hell. It's hell, you guys, and it's been hell for two years. And it feels like no one cares to do anything about it. And so we're just here with the chickens, because the chickens haven't hurt us. But is there trauma with chickens? Yes, there is. And so of course, that's part of the reenactment, that we're here in the woods, alone, hurting. That's a reenactment. I can't even. I can't even.
Man, how did you do this to me with any email?
Okay. Thank you again for what you're doing and all you do, it's so invaluable. Also, please tell JohnMark that he is loved and missed. I know, right? And you guys, while we're talking about these hard things. JohnMark is part of what held hope for us. And JohnMark is part of what smoothed out relationships for us. And without him, we are struggling. We are struggling. There is a lot that he did to keep us functioning in a variety of ways that I don't think anyone even realized. And without him it's just… it's empty. It's empty. And it's changed. And I cry about it every day. But he is so wounded. And our rupture directly impacted him. I don't, I don't know that that can be fixed. Like, I don't know how to have hope without him who holds our hope that it can be fixed. And if JohnMark has lost hope, then how bad are things really inside? I don't, I can't even talk about this. Oh, except you made me. You tricked me.
I know that the friends didn't thank him for his care packages that he sent, like you mentioned on one of those episodes. I think his care packages show how kind and thoughtful and caring he is, and he deserves to know that. Ugh. I just, I'm sorry if that was bad to mention that. I didn't mean that as whining or ungrateful. I meant that as an example of it just, maybe what you were talking about with littles in the grocery store, like it was just embarrassing. And then when it didn't mean anything, and what their thoughts are just that we are a crazy person doing weird things, than there’s shame that we feel instead of it being “here's a gift from a part of us and that helps us feel closer.” Do you see the difference? Like, I didn’t mean to be complaining about my friends being ungrateful. I don't, like, I, they didn't talk to us at all. I have no idea what they thought. I can't mindread them. But what I'm saying is that when you give a piece of yourself, and someone responds to that, then that builds relationship and safety and connection, which is what builds healing. But if you just preach about connection and don't actually offer it, that doesn't build anything except for pain and betrayal and disconnect, because it's misattunement. That's relational trauma. And I think that's part of where the trigger is. And I think that when-. What was toxic for us was not the other people. You guys, our friendship experience that I'm referencing, all of those people are good people. I do not at all-. And I'm sorry if it has, I’m truly, truly sorry if it has. I do not at all mean to say any of them have done anything bad or wrong. That's not it. What I'm saying is the toxic experience for us on the inside is that giving pieces of ourselves away, without those pieces being responded to, is the same kind of misattunement we experienced when we were little, and it is relational trauma. And so it makes us sicker instead of better. Connection does not bring healing without connection. And to talk about connection. and to offer healing through connection, and say that's what love is, but then not actually give it is both shaming and dangerous. Like “on your life” dangerous. And when those things didn't match, that's what was so hard.
It wasn't that I needed someone to say thank you for the care package. It was that it was embarrassing and ridiculous, and I felt ashamed that we would try so hard when there was nothing from that. There was nothing. So, it's my, it's not about these people were wrong. So what we misunderstood-.
You guys, I can't believe this emails opened all this up. Like, I need to just send this to my therapist.
It is not that they did anything wrong not thinking as for a care package. They are sometimes thankful people. And in fact, sometimes it's triggering because I don't know what they actually mean and what's authentic because when they just do that for everybody, then that's about them, it's not about us. So what is the connection that builds our relationship? And I didn't need them to thank us for the packages. Like that's such a silly, ridiculous, drama thing. That's not it. That's not what I mean. I mean that, like your littles in the grocery store with your girlfriend, her littles in the grocery store. When a part of us offered what to them feels like life and death, and it's not even responded, then instead of it being something that builds the relationship, it's actually something that destroys the relationship. Because then we realize that didn't actually matter to them. We don't actually matter to them. We were foolish and stupid and wrong to even try, and what an idiot are we that we thought this and this and this meant this and this and this. And then with the pandemic, we spent an entire year rehashing all of that. And having to find our way through that misunderstanding.
I don't mean these people were bad. I don't mean a birthday party was bad. I don't mean to be bad-talking anyone. And I'm sorry if that's what it sounded like. I use the birthday party because it was a neutral example that we realized was a reenactment. And so we had to work on the triggers, and we did that piece in therapy. And I am truly truly sorry if we misspoke or disrespected people at all. Because these are good and beautiful people. We would not have chosen them for friends if they were not good and beautiful and safe people. Their hearts are gold. They are good people.
But they were not my people. And that's what I misunderstood. I thought that they were choosing us, and we had to learn how to choose back. And we showed the choosing back in the only ways that we knew how, and when that didn't work, we literally had nothing else to try with. Like, no other tools in the box. It was really all we had to give. And so when that is rejected, or not accepted, or not responded to, then that was very deep shame, which triggered more shame. And all of that toxicity is our stuff to work through. Like, they get to be friends with who they want, and when they want, and how they want. Like, that doesn’t have anything to do with us. Our stuff, though, is what is this trigger about not being chosen, about being abandoned, about being rejected, and even about good people who are not malicious also abandoning us? Because that's a reenactment too, right? Like we lost them in the fire. That's in our book. I can't talk about it right now. But they didn't leave us on purpose. Like this is deep stuff, guys. It is deep, deep, in our most wounded, wounded place. And it's like this crowd of safe people came and said, “Hi, we are good people. We love God. We're going to love you in good and Godly ways, and that will bring you healing.” And all I felt was the scab, like the deepest, most painful, hurting, scab pulled off, and then they walked away with it. That was my experience. That is not what their intent was. I don't think that that they even understood that that's what happened. And I don't mean to talk about it in a bad way or disrespectfully. I am processing my own triggers and my own experience and what that has been like for me.
So chips and salsa to you. And solidarity, or rather in salsaderity. Oh my goodness, Kat. That's funny. That's really funny. We've not had chips and salsa in a long time, actually, because there's no JohnMark. And so there's just sadness there. Ugh. This was not at all what I thought we're going to talk about. I can't even do more emails. Kat, you’re turkey meat because I can't believe your emails stirred up all of this, and I don't even know how to edit this to make it presentable. And I don't even know. Oh man, I just need to go talk to my therapist. Thanks a lot, Kat. Thanks a lot. Oh, oh, my heart. You're stepping all over my toes, Kat. This was brutal. Okay, I'm literally going to therapy now.
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Thank you for listening. Your support really helps us feel less alone while we sort through all of this and learn together. Maybe it will help you in some ways too. You can connect with us on Patreon. And join us for free in our new online community by going to our website at www.systemspeak.org. If there's anything we've learned in the last four years of this podcast, it's that connection brings healing. We look forward to connecting with you.