Transcript: Episode 94
94. Blisters
Welcome to the System Speak podcast. If you would like to support our efforts at sharing our story, fighting stigma about Dissociative Identity Disorder, and educating the community and the world about trauma and dissociation, please go to our website at www.systemspeak.org, where there is a button for donations and you can offer a one time donation to support the podcast or become an ongoing subscriber. You can also support us on Patreon for early access to updates and what’s unfolding for us. Simply search for Emma Sunshaw on Patreon. We appreciate the support, the positive feedback, and you sharing our podcast with others. We are also super excited to announce the release of our new online community - a safe place for listeners to connect about the podcast. It feels like any other social media platform where you can share, respond, join groups, and even attend events with us, including the new monthly meetups that start this month. Go to our web page at www.systemspeak.org to join the community. We're excited to see you there.
[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
This episode does have a trigger warning for new trauma and mention of difficult content, which you can read in the episode description. The new trauma is in relation to our experience in Africa, and some difficulties we had coming home. None of what happened is described in detail, but an overview of what we endured while we were there, and trying to get home is mentioned in passing. As always, please take good care of yourself while listening and after. Thank you.
You will hear us talk to our daughter, Mary, who was with us on our trip, and then process further with The Husband.
Because of so many emails and messages, we want to say that we do appreciate your concerns. We have been to doctors in Africa once we got to the embassy, and again at home, to be checked out thoroughly - both us and Mary. We’ve also seen a trafficking specialist and gone to counseling. Mary will continue to follow up with her therapist, as will we with ours. But Mary first wanted to see our therapist, because she already feels safe with her.
And so we met with our therapist, with Mary, as well as an interpreter, because we didn’t have the right ears to be able to communicate directly, and because of our experience without having our cochlear implants on while we were in Africa.
These are the things that you’ll hear referenced, but we want to assure you that we have filed all the reports. The authorities know what happened, and we are home safe, and everything is okay. So, you will hear Mary first and then the husband as we talk about it.
Because this is a new trauma that is recent; and because it involves our daughter, Mary; and because we are actively processing what’s just happened, we don’t plan on sharing anymore about it other than what we share in this episode. And we would also ask for our own safety and healing and respect for our own process, that no matter who you are, you don’t ask us questions about it or talk about it, unless we initiate the conversation and are ready to do so. That’s a boundary we’ve set with all of our family and friends, as we adjust to being home and continue our healing. Thank you for listening.
Interviewer: Bold Font
Interviewee: Standard Font
So, let’s talk about Africa.
Okay.
What did we do at the beginning of our trip? We’ll talk about the hard things later. But what was good at the beginning of the trip?
That we got there safely.
We got there safely. And what did we do when we got there?
We had food and water and we got to go visit the kids and --
We got to see the deaf kids?
Yeah.
What about the slave ship? Can you talk about the slave ship? What did you see and what did you learn?
I learned that the women and the men were separated from each other, and that there was this door -- if you were inside, it would say it was the door of no return. Once you walked outside and turned around, it would say the door of return.
And you got to return for your people, didn’t you?
Yeah.
That’s pretty special.
Yeah.
You saw where your ancestors were sold.
Yeah.
That was powerful.
Yeah.
What did you think about that?
I thought that if I was able to walk inside, maybe my ancestors could walk back inside too.
Aww. What was hard about the trip?
No food and water for the next few weeks. And --
We had some problems, didn’t we?
Yeah.
So, we were doing some specific things while we were there.
Yeah.
But there were some people who were supposed to help us that made bad choices.
Yeah.
And they took us from our group.
Yeah.
And while they had us, we didn’t get food or water.
Yeah.
That was hard.
Mmhmm.
What else?
Being left alone in a room all locked up.
We got locked in a room and we had to stay for a while.
Yeah.
What did we do while we were locked in our room?
We talked about the positive things.
We talked about positive things. We made up games with bugs and rocks.
Yeah.
[Laughs] You saw a giant spider. Do you remember that?
Yeah.
That was crazy.
And the man walked in and picked it up with his own hand.
He did. [Laughs] He just walked in and picked it up, didn’t he?
Yeah.
That was crazy. [Laughs]
Yeah. And there was a big lizard crawling up our wall.
We saw lizards - a lot of lizards.
Scorpions!
Scorpions. It was a pretty scary room, wasn’t it? [Laughs]
Yes.
We had to use a lot of imagination to keep ourselves calm and safe, didn’t we?
Yeah.
But we did it.
Yeah.
Give me five.
[High Five]
We’re strong and brave women.
Yeah.
We just saw the therapist and talked to her about what happened.
Yeah.
And she said we are strong and brave.
Yeah.
How did you feel when she told you that?
I felt like I should be in the Gryffindor house.
[Laughs] Because you’re strong and brave, so you’re going to be a Gryffindor?
Mmhmm.
Like in Harry Potter?
Yeah.
Love it. Oh. Do you feel better since talking to the therapist?
Yeah.
What helped?
Going to express the bad things and pushing them away.
So, being able to get some things out?
Yeah.
What has been hard about coming home?
Sometimes I didn’t get to spend time with my brothers or sisters.
So, you missed them while we were gone?
Mmhmm.
What’s been hard since we’ve been back? Are you sleeping?
I am sleeping fine. It’s just -- it’s just -- it’s just really dry and it’s hard to get back to water again.
Oh, we were dehydrated?
Yeah.
So, we’re still thirsty. We still look for cold water, don’t we?
Yeah.
And food too. You’re eating like a man, my friend.
And apple juice.
Everything that can rehydrate us, and we’re going to see the doctor.
Mmhmm.
And we’ve had some bad --
Green food.
Huh?
Green food.
What?
Green food.
Oh, green foods. Yes. [Laughs] That’s awesome. Knuckles.
[Giving knuckles]
And we’ve had some nightmares.
Yeah.
And been clingy a little bit, meaning we want to be together like before.
Yeah.
These were hard things. How did we get out of Africa? Who helped us?
Kathy.
Our interpreter.
Mmhmm.
Who else?
The security.
The police, yeah.
And the embassy.
The embassy. So, it was a scary time, but we got home safe, didn’t we?
Yeah, and Papa and Grandad gave us our blessings and --
That helped protect us, didn’t it?
Yeah.
Do you feel better now that we’re home?
Yeah.
What was your favorite thing about Africa?
Being able to see my tribe.
You got to meet your people, didn’t you? That’s really special.
Mmhmm.
So, one thing that we talked about with our therapist is how the hard things don’t change what is good.
Yeah.
We get to keep what is good.
Yeah.
They can’t take that from us.
Yeah.
Pretty special, huh?
Yeah. Don’t let the hard things take over your day.
Say it again.
Don’t let the hard things take over your day.
There you go. What did she teach out about -- well, let me backup. First, what did you learn about NTIS?
N means now, T means time, I means is, and S means safe.
So, what does that mean - now time is safe?
It means that now time is safe so that we can spend more time together and also love each other and now time is safe that we’re home.
Pretty special.
Yeah.
Feels better, doesn’t it?
Yeah.
Sometimes we remind each other - NTIS.
Yeah.
There you go. What did she teach you at the end of your session, before you went back out to the waiting room, about bedtime?
She taught me that don’t just let the bad things of your day stay there, or if you have bad dreams -- push them off. Imagine good things about your day and then you’ll have good dreams.
So, she talked about how it’s okay to talk about the hard things, and express your feelings to me and to Papa and to others --
Or to our therapist.
To our therapist and other safe people.
Grandma and Grandad.
Grandma and Grandad. So, we have lots of people who are supporting us and it’s okay to talk to them.
DHS.
DHS - our friends, yeah.
Mmhmm.
Your caseworkers from before you were adopted. They love you so much. Mmhmm. And so it’s okay to talk about your feelings with them in those ways, but she said when it’s time to play, or time to rest, or time to relax --
Push them away.
Push it away and let it go. And when it’s time to sleep, think about all the good pieces of your day.
Yeah.
And then the next day when you’re ready to talk about it to someone again, then you can come back to it.
Okay. That’s why we watch Doctor Who in the daytime.
That’s why we [laughs] watch Doctor Who in the daytime and not before bed, right?
Yeah.
Doctor Who is creepy, scary.
Talks dolls.
[Laughs]
Or laser robots.
[Laughs] I love you so much.
Or people turning into other things.
[Laughs] It’s pretty scary, isn’t it?
Yeah.
That was a good example.
Or moving doll houses.
[Laughs]
Or monsters under the bed.
[Laughs]
That pulls you when you’re standing up.
Doctor Who is pretty traumatizing, isn’t it?
Yeah.
[Laughs] You’re awesome. You are brave and you are strong.
Yeah.
Say, “I am brave and I am strong.”
I am brave and I am strong.
I love it.
[Highfive]
I love you.
I love you, too.
Do you want to go play?
Yeah.
Have fun.
Bye.
That was awesome.
She’s so cute.
[Laughs]
[Clears throat]
So, we saw the therapist and we let our daughter talk first and share and we had an interpreter there to make sure that she could express herself clearly -- and anyone else -- and so that she could express herself clearly. And the way that we communicated on the trip, because on the trip, we did not have our cochlear implants. We didn’t use them. We had an interpreter. And so because that experience sort of happened with that part of ourselves, both for her and literally with us with different Parts inside, dealing with everything. To process today, we went ahead and had an interpreter in our session, which was actually super helpful in ways we didn’t even expect.
So, that was good. But it’s also good now to sort of feel the lifting of that and to be home safely and kind of come full circle with the therapist and back to the husband and be home. I’m glad we are home.
Me too.
The Husband is capitalized.
It’s like The Wal-Mart.
The Wal-Mart. I did not get The Husband at The Wal-Mart, however. But, he does say The Wal-Mart. He also says pin-ter-est.
Yes, because that is the way to say it.
It is pinterest.
Pin-ter-est.
[Laughs]
I know how syllables work.
[Laughs] Pinterest. He’s a crafty fellow. [Laughs]
Indeed. [Clears throat]
So, Africa was bad, you guys. I mean, no offense to Africa. We love Africa, and even the people in Ghana were amazing. The problem was that our trip kind of got hijacked -- well, literally got hijacked. We got kidnapped. I don’t want to just trauma dump, here on the podcast, but it was a very difficult time. We were scared we were not going to be able to get home. And we almost didn’t come home. It was pretty scary.
But, Mary is okay. We are okay. Our friend who pretty much saved our lives, but also was with us through some very difficult and frightening circumstances -- she is home. She’s struggling. She got malaria, and so she’s also physically struggling in a way that we are okay. We had malaria medication with us the whole time and so we were able to prevent that. But, we did not have food or water for almost two weeks, and sometimes got a piece of mango to share - the three of us…or a slice of watermelon to share -- but not everyday. And it wasn’t until we had help from the embassy that we were given rice and chicken at night -- two times while we were there during the week.
So, I don’t want to traumatize everybody who’s listening, but it was a very frightening trip. It went -- like in America, you would say, “It went south” except really, we went North.
[Laughs]
[Laughs] Anyway, the point is we are home safely and we are grateful. And we kind of have a choice -- and I talked about this with the therapist -- well, I didn’t -- somebody did -- but, what we said with the therapist was, we pretty much understand that we have a choice to either avoid what happened, because it was hard and awful and just let that dissociate away. It’d be just one more chunk that’s just out there floating - like an island far, far away. Or we have the choice to deal with this while we have support, because we have The Husband, and the family, and the therapist, and we are safe. And it did end. It was only two weeks… not at all to minimize what we went through. But, we are safe. We were able to get ourselves out.
And really, there’s a lot of power in that… that we were able to keep ourselves safe. Even though hard things happened to us, we were able to get out of it. Even though it took some time, we did it. We got ourselves out of it. We kept our daughter safe, and we got back home, and that’s huge. It’s really huge. And so we focused with the therapist on how to apply that to our history as well, because the same thing happened in our history.
Like basically, in Africa it feels like we re-lived our entire childhood in two weeks. And so obviously there were triggers. Obviously there’s new trauma. But what we can do with that is either stay in the suffering, or ignore the suffering, or we can use it for good, and use it to see how -- even like our whole entire life in the childhood that was difficult growing up and everything -- we were able to get away. And, we are safe now. Just like that childhood, just like the trip to Africa -- there’s a parallel there. We got out. We have a good life now in the present, in now time, where it really is safe. We have our family. We have our home. We have the therapist. We have friends. We have support. We’re not alone. We’re not being hurt. When we were in danger, we knew how to get ourselves out of it, and we could do something about it.
So even though there were circumstances beyond our control, we were not helpless, and we did not have to be hopeless, and that is a big deal.
I know it’s hot, I’m so sorry.
Not that bad.
Not as bad as Ghana.
[Laughs]
Do you want to share -- can you remember what you said earlier that we wanted to be sure we wanted to talk about, when we were talking about who dealt with what happened in Ghana and you were talking about the different parts of yourself and --
Sure. So, this is not really specifically about Ghana, but coming to a better understanding of you and DID has made me think a lot about myself and be more aware of how I also have different parts to my identity and my personality. Right? So, there’s a part of me that’s very childlike sometimes. There’s a part of me that’s very depressed sometimes. There’s a part of me that’s very cheerful and outgoing and active. And I’ve really noticed more and more how I have these different parts of me, and I shift from one to the other - the not being dissociative in the same way doesn’t mean that I’m not shifting around between parts of my personality. It just means that I, kind of, all of the bits slosh together in a big bowl, as opposed to having their own little partitioned areas.
But really, the me who is depressed feels like a different person from the person who’s being silly and ticking the kids. Right? So, it’s just been interesting to think about how life experiences -- you store -- everybody stores those life experiences in themselves and their personalities. That is not what is the result of trauma. That’s just normal personality. It’s just the segregation of all of those pieces -- the fact that they’re not just fluid in how they transition around as a result of what happens as a result of trauma.
Oh, wow, I see. And there’s -- so it really -- I mean, one thing I really appreciated about that is how it normalizes what we’re going through. Because so often we just feel crazy or one of them always says unwell -- like the mother -- that’s the polite way to say what was wrong with the mother, who was crazy.
[Laughs]
Is that she was unwell. And so we feel unwell.
Yeah.
But, really it’s a very normal thing just to an extreme.
Yeah.
And it’s a reminder that it’s a result of what happened to us, not something we’ve done wrong.
Right.
Which, for some reason is really hard to remember.
And it’s not even something wrong with you. It’s not --
Ohhh.
Your experiences didn’t ruin you somehow. It was your mind, your psyche’s way, of protecting itself, by creating boundaries. And, the danger was so great that those boundaries had to be completely impermeable, in order to seal off the danger. Right?
Wow. Which makes -- technically -- that means technically that it’s something right with us, not something wrong with us.
Yeah. It’s like -- this is such -- this is such a weird example, but I think I’ve even said this before -- it’s like a blister. Nobody likes having a blister, but the blisters are actually there as a form of protection. It’s where some damage has been made and so liquid fills up in the little partition on your skin to calm that area and cool it and protect it. It’s like your body’s natural defense system against whatever it is that irritation was.
So, Alters are not blisters, of course, but your mind has created these protective barriers in a way that is not necessarily comfortable, but it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. It just means your mind was trying to protect you from something that was dangerous.
You know what’s interesting is that so many times when we were little, we felt like we were so alone and things were so bad and there was no ending in sight and no way to get help? And I think that’s part of what causes more blisters or thicker blisters or worse blisters or infected blisters [laughs] or whatever. You know? Just using that example. That’s part of what makes things so complicated internally. But on this trip, we’ve spent these months and months [laughs] -- months and months now -- see, I’m emphasizing that, because it was really so hard -- still is so hard -- working on that avoidance chapter in the workbook.
Mmm.
And so, I was so cognizant and we talked so much while the trip was happening of how can we stay present in this? We have to for Mary. And how can we not avoid what’s happening now, working together as a team, in whatever way that takes, rather than defaulting to dissociation?
Yeah.
Whether that means assigning it - one person has to deal with this. Or whether that means not being aware of who’s dealing with it. Of if that means not being aware that it happened at all. Or if that means erasing it once we get back. Very cognizant, very consciously decided, we have to deal with this while this is happening. And I’m not saying we did that perfectly, and I’m not saying that that means now it’s going to be easy to just wrap it up real quick in 45 minutes with the therapist, but I mean, we don’t have to stuff it down or stash it away or hide from it. And part of what made that possible is that we understand so much now, about the process and how it works. We understand now about triggers and how some pieces of what was already hard… was harder, because it reminded us of things from the past.
Yeah.
But also, just like those things were there, positive things were also there. We knew while those hard things were happening, that we were not alone. We had you. We had the therapist. We had friends.
Yeah.
And we knew we had resources, and so we could teach Mary some of the coping skills and things we’ve been learning, even in the middle of it happening. Not that it made it okay what happened. What happened was not okay at all.
Right.
And not that it made dealing with it easy, but we knew how to do it.
Yeah.
It was scary. It was terrifying. It was an awful, horrible situation. But, we did it.
Yup.
And we handled it. And we knew even where to get help -- that we were not helpless. We had resources. So, we figured out how to get in touch with the embassy. We figured out how to tell which were the real police. We figured out how to disclose our location so that they could find us, how to do what it took to survive, and to protect Mary, so that we could get home.
Yeah.
And I think that’s amazing.
Yeah, it is.
And so, even what happened in Africa ended up being really awful in some ways, the things that were good were still good. But bigger than that is what we learned about ourselves from the experience.
Absolutely.
And how we can apply that to what we’ve already been through in the past. And for me, that feels huge. It changes everything.
Can I point out that in the way that all of your system was working to get something done, a bunch of individuals working together might be called an association.
Oh, fancy.
[Laughs]
Okay, so say that again.
So, in the same way all of your system was working together, a bunch of individuals working together to do something they can’t do on their own, might be called an association.
An association. So, we did the opposite of dissociation.
Did the opposite of dissociating.
Yes!
You associated.
High five. [High five] We are cool. I’m actually really proud of it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it’s huge. And you know what’s come of it is we’ve spent this whole last year writing in the notebook, but we’ve never actually talked about it in therapy.
Hmm.
Like not directly. It introduced people. It’s made us aware of some of the issues, but we’ve not actually sat down together with the therapist to read.
Yeah.
So, she’s got like a year's worth [laughs] of notebooks. But, it’s time, and we told her that today.
Wow.
We told her we’re ready. We need to look at it.
Relating to that -- can I loop back to something you said a while ago?
Please, I love when you loop. It’s so hot.
I’m very loopy.
[Laughs]
So, you said that when you were younger you felt so alone and so hopeless, like there was no end to it. There are Parts of you that are still feeling that.
Oh, snap.
There are Parts of you that are still trapped in those awful moments, as if they were the present.
Oh.
And it is hard to get there, because they were sectioned off so that you wouldn’t have to deal with those things. Right?
Yeah.
So, the very Parts of you that need to be rescued are going to be the hardest to get to -- but those Parts of you from the past, that you have this compassion for now -- that you can look back on your own life and see how hard it was for you -- they need you.
Wait, what?
They need you.
Me?
Yes, you.
Need me for what?
To get them out, because now you know that now time is safe, but they don't know that yet. Because for them, now time is the past until they can pass through those borders that have separated them off, they are still trapped in that same experience of suffering and loneliness and helplessness. And that is why therapy is so hard and that is why therapy is so important.
Woah.
You have Littles to rescue.
So, you mean what I felt like locked in that room, without food and water, with the men coming in -- that’s why it felt like -- when we -- like, reliving that from the past, in the present now, there are Littles that are still in that.
Yes, they’re stuck in like a time loop -- like a Doctor Who thing, to go back to that.
Oh, snorkels.
Except you are the Doctor.
I am the Doctor?
You are the Doctor.
Doctor Who? That’s crazy. I need a Tardis.
You should ask your therapist about that.
[Laughs] That’s a lot for me to think about.
I hope it’s helpful.
I don’t --
I’m not actually a registered therapist, so… .
[Laughs] I don’t -- why’s it so scary to do if I feel -- I feel so powerful after Africa. It was awful, and it was scary, and I still feel anxious and startled and hypervigilant about it all, but I’m also, for the first time, really proud of myself, because we got out.
Yeah.
But, I don’t know how to offer that to them. I don’t know how to bridge -- I’m aware. I’m aware, finally. I get it. I finally get it. That’s why this is so huge and so powerful, even though it was hard, because it connected or clicked that piece into place for me. I get it now, why I need to do that, but I don’t know how to do that. And I don’t know why, if it feels so good on this side of it, that I did it literally, physically -- why it’s so terrifying to try to think to do it with them.
Would you go back to Ghana now?
No!
That’s why it’s terrifying.
Oh.
Because you wouldn’t go back to those childhood experiences either. And for those Parts of you that were stuck in those traumas, it’s a present experience. It’s not a past experience.
That’s really heavy.
Yeah.
But also, I wouldn’t leave Mary there.
No. And, you got her out successfully. But, the good thing is you don’t have to do it alone. It’s possible you don’t even have the tools to do it alone. That’s why you have a therapist. And that’s why you have friends to talk to. You’re not alone this time, and you on the outside, know that. So, for you, part of therapy is facing that nightmare of going into the danger zone again to let those Parts of you that are still trapped, to know that actually, they are safe, that they have already gotten out. They just don’t know it yet.
Oh.
And they won’t go away. You, all of you, is you. Bringing peace to those Parts of you doesn’t mean that you're getting rid of them or losing Parts of yourself. They will always be Parts of you, but they can be happier parts of you. They can all know that they are safe.
So, leaving them there would be like leaving Mary in Ghana.
Yeah.
Which is absolutely not okay.
Right.
Uh. I was feeling so powerful and proud of myself, and now I’m like, oh man.
But, you haven’t failed to get them out. It’s not a failure in any way. You are still in the process. The fact that you’re still working on it does not mean that you have failed. The fact that you are still working on it means you are succeeding.
Wait, what?
[Laughs]
Say that again.
The fact that you are still working on it does not mean that you’ve failed. The fact that you are still working on it means that you are succeeding.
Who are you?
I know, right?
Where do you come up with this stuff? So, that means we can’t quit therapy?
Yes.
[Laughs]
Nice try.
Okay, that’s a lot to think about.
Yeah.
I think it’s just going to have to hang there and sit.
[Laughs]
I don’t really have a response, because to see that -- it’s like the avoidance thing. I can either avoid it and forget that you even said it, but if I’m going to hear what you said -- literally or figuratively -- if I’m going to recognize what you said, then that requires me to do something about it.
Ah.
I don’t want to go back.
You don’t have to. You’re in the process of getting out.
Woah, what? It feels so inside out.
The fact that you still have Parts of yourself that need to be rescued from that danger does not mean that the other Parts of yourself have to be in danger.
Woah. Okay, say it one more time? Same thing again -- I don’t know how you do this.
The fact that you have to rescue the Parts of yourself that are still in danger, or still feel like they’re in danger, does not mean that the other Parts of you that feel safe right now, have to go into danger. That feeling of danger that you’re experiencing -- I think that is the feeling that those other Parts of you are holding. It’s not --
Now time.
Yeah, it’s not now time. Now time is safe.
Oh my goodness. My brain hurts right now.
You’re welcome.
[Laughs] I’m going to have to just chew it.
Okay.
Thank you.
I love you.
I love you. Okay yeah, that’s all I can do.
Thank you for listening. Your support really helps us feel less alone while we sort through all of this and learn together. Maybe it will help you in some ways too. You can connect with us on Patreon. And join us for free in our new online community by going to our website at www.systemspeak.org. If there's anything we've learned in the last four years of this podcast, it's that connection brings healing. We look forward to connecting with you.