Transcript: Episode 337
337. The Drama Octagon, Part 1
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
[Note: The Husband’s voice is in italics]
[Laughter] Are you getting all your wiggles out before we start? I'm trying to. You're really had to edit it because you’re so wiggly. [Laughter]
It's snowing and I'm freezing. It is very cold in here. Why is this another house colder than everyone else? Because I am evil and frozen, and let it go, let it go, let it snow. Wow, that was a fascinating combination of Dante and Disney. That's basically my life, honey. I can't believe it's snowing out there, though. It feels so Kansas City. [Laughter] Very picture postcard, if it wasn't for the hardware store at the other side of the forest. [Laughter] Blaring the lights into our faces. Yeah. He was like, “Don't you love this countryside?” And I was like, “No, we left the real countryside and I'm sacrificing it. So stop talking about it, okay? Because your illusion doesn't cut it.” No, it's lovely outside.
Um, but, okay, trying to focus, sorry. For a very dark beginning, our topic tonight is as dark and cold as that. I don't even know where to start. Let's just start with what happened. How can we talk about what happened without it just being gossip or making things worse? Like I do want to be respectful. But…
Maybe we could say that there is someone from your past connected to your family, who through someone else they know, you know, the grapevine already, has evidently found the podcast and the books, and feels offended and insulted by the things talked about they're in. Even though you have gone to great lengths to make sure that their privacy is respected, and that they are not mentioned by name anywhere. And we used a pseudonym. Yeah. But also had to be honest about using a pseudonym, because I was trying to be honest. Yes. Oh, it makes me ill just thinking about it.
So, okay, so let's just start with that first piece. The person did not contact me directly. Right. So family dynamics 101. It’s not even family dynamics. It's just communication. They did not contact me directly. Someone else contacted me in their behalf, about them, in a high school kind of way. Oh, that shaming, is it? I don't mean it shaming. I mean it, I really don't mean it shaming or disrespectful. I mean it developmentally.
So you have talked in the past about how in drama, there's always three participants. In like social drama, right? There's, I can't remember all three, what the proper name for all three of them. It is called Karpman’s triangle, and it is the persecutor, the rescuer and the victim. So, in this particular situation, you have somebody who feels like a victim, because his feelings have been stirred up. And you have the third person who wants to be a rescuer and wants to help this person, which in and of itself is a noble desire, right? But they are doing that by together putting you in the position of being the persecutor. Is that what you said? So they have cast you in this role, which it isn't fair. [Laughter] It's not correct. It's it's like a false, a false label in order for the other two participants to feel comfortable in these rules that they have taken for themselves.
How can you see this so clearly and even laugh about it? Because I want to vomit and cry. Well, because if both of us vomited and cried, it would be a very juicy podcast. Oh, my goodness. It's, it's always easier from the outside to see things clearly and objectively, right? I just don't have all of the emotional weight to that particular triangle that you do because I don't have the same experiences with it. The way you could deal with my mom, because you have the same baggage. Yes, exactly the same.
I'm so glad you met her. I mean, also, I'm sorry. But I'm so glad you met her, because I feel like it adds not just you as a witness, because you knew her and dealt with her and saw different things and heard different things and, and, and good and bad and hard and explanatory, and things like that. But also, just because you have that flavor of the dynamics of what I grew up in. [Laughter] And you have the nuances and subtleties in that way to understand, even if I just came to you and said, “This is what happened, and this is what happened,” which I don't have capacity to do. But even if I could say, “This is what happened. This is the order it happened in. Here's the exact truth, correct perception of it, and da da da da da,” no one would believe me, because so much has happened. And I think many survivors feel like this. Because so much happens, and like, it's just, it's beyond description. Like, it's more than a lifetime movie. Like no one would believe this could really be someone's life. Yeah. So that actually brings up another layer of what's going on, is that they're like, “This isn't true. We have a different-.” What did they say? A different understanding or perspective? Something like that, yeah. Something like that. A different perspective of the past and what we endured, and what did or didn't happen.
Now, here's what I want to say about that. I feel like we have already talked about this on the podcast. Sure. And I also feel like we already talked about this in the book itself. Because it comes up in therapy all the time. Yeah. Was it real? Was it not real? Did it happen? Did it not happen? Which parts happened? Which parts are real? Am I real? Are you real? Like it all gets very tangled very quickly. For me, it feels like-. Well, first, let me say that there are three, three things—if I can remember all three—there are three ways that I can absolutely agree with them.
One is that I was a little bit older, so there are things I remember and witnessed that they did not. And part of my job was keeping them safe. So there are things that they absolutely don't know about, and I absolutely agree with that. Yeah. Also, we didn't live in the same place all the time. Right. So there's that.
But number two, I also absolutely understand that there's always the experience of, even with you and me with the children, we experience different things in the same event. Oh, absolutely. Like, our own internal experiences of what's happening is very different even though we're going through the same thing. Our children cannot agree on the experience of something that happened five minutes previously. [Laughter] Right? So even in that case of siblings, with just neutral examples, when such and such happens, our kids, all of the siblings, will be like, “no, this happened and this happened,” and “no, she did this” and “no, he did that.” And so there's always that experience of things.
And then third, I will absolutely concede—absolutely concede—that some things I experienced as a child through a child's perception, that I absolutely did not have capacity or language to express in the same way that I would if it happened to me when I was an adult.
And then, as far as the book goes, there are some things that had to get edited or combined or put together or whatever, just for the sake of the writing process, or the editing process, that doesn't have to do with what's true or not true. But like, I don't need 20 stories of therapy gone bad in the book. Here are the top three awful examples. That's a chapter, moving on. You know what I mean?
So, so I agree and absolutely understand those kinds of differences. And I don't mean for any of that to be harmful or disrespectful. Absolutely. I don't. But I also feel like it's in Hunger Games. When Peta is saying to Katniss, like he has to ask her, like, real or not real? Which pieces are real and which pieces are not real? And if they're not real pieces, it would benefit me to know that, but I can't get those pieces if they're not participating. And they can't get those pieces from me if they're not participating. Yeah. I don't know.
But also, at the same time, it absolutely breaks my heart that they are hurting, or that they feel badly, or that I have caused harm in any way. And to be clear, these are people that we dearly love. They are people with whom for the most part we would have a safe relationship today, mostly. But we love them and care about them and don't wish them any ill will at all. But everybody has their own work to do. And you can't declare yourself whole by declaring someone else broken. Wait, what? You can't declare yourself whole by declaring someone else broken. They can't say that they don't have trauma, or have healed the wounds of the past, by blaming it all on you. They have not actually done any of the work to heal. Creating a new scapegoat does not actually provide them psychological salvation. Right, right.
Also, the other concern that they brought up was that, like the book, for example, or the things we've talked about on the podcast, that it's the same problems I caused when I was 17. And I'm like, but-. [Laughter] I'm sorry. It's not funny. But like, it, yeah. It is the same problem from when I was 17. That's kind of the whole point.
I would argue that it's not the same problems that happened when they were 17. I think they just haven't made progress past that point. And so when they get triggered, those are the same feelings they had when they were 17. Because when you were 17, I don't think you had the clarity to be able to declare what was going on in such a way as you were working on doing now. I don't think you had the ability to look with such clear eyes at the people around you and do the work of discerning between what was your role, what was their role? Like this is something that's still progress right now in therapy, right? It's just understanding what of these feelings come from things that you actually feel the weight of your own choices versus you're feeling the weight of the guilt of someone else's choices that were done to you. That's not something you could have understood when you were 17. But then feeling the feelings of shame, of endangerment by having something that they wanted secret or forgotten to be revealed and remembered. That sounds like the same thing they experienced when they were that age.
I guarantee they did not read the book. You don’t think so? I don't think so. Why? Because I think dissociation has, like, a reflector shield power. In the same way that a few years ago, there's some conversations that you and I could not have without you disappearing into yourself or into another self where, because those internal barriers are set up to protect you, in some ways, from even knowing the truth of what happened because it was so horrific. And even though, as far as we know, this person does not have DID, there are clearly things that his mind is dissociated from. And those barriers are set up to protect him from having to acknowledge those unpleasant truths. And so I don't think there's any way he could read the book. I think his body would repel it.
I think it gets repelled, and then puked on me. Oh, yes. So one of the reasons we can talk about this a little bit on the podcast is because we had the English teacher on System Speak last year. Which I guess now was almost two years ago. And she was there for all of that time. And they hate her. I mean, not saying that hate is in their hearts. But they would associate her with part of the problem. And said that if I ever talked to her again, that they would never talk to me again. And so, like, there were rules, like rules. I could not add her to Facebook. I could not text her. I could not call her. That's one reason why when I did want to talk to her for myself for therapy, and then for the podcast later, that it took me so long to do it. Because I was so afraid because I was breaking family rules to do that. Yeah. Except my therapist was like, “You're 40 years old. Why are they dictating who your friends are.” Yeah. And as far as perspectives of things and connecting back to when I'm 17, it really is connected back then because even this therapist was in that office that I was in at the time. Oh my goodness. Right? My previous therapist—I had forgotten that connection—was there, with that therapist from when I was 17, the one that took me home.
But even if you did that, even if you said this is all because my therapist made it up, and this is all my therapist put this in my head, and all of that, I'm still the one in trouble. [Laughter] So like, I can't, I can't win. I can't explain myself. I can't defend myself. I can't engage and make things worse. And you told me not to respond, to just wait until they were ready to talk to me directly.
Yes. So I responded to the messages that were sent to me. And again, the person who wrote the messages, I love this person. I appreciate that she has good intentions. But I did not, I was not interested in playing any sort of junior high games of like, “let's talk about this person and see if we can get those two people to make up, and do these other things.” I just responded directly and gently, and just didn't engage with the things that she was, she seemed like she was trying to do. Because really, I think if you and this other person we're talking about have issues with each other, then that's something that cannot really be resolved through two different mediators. It’s something that you guys will have to work out between yourselves. And we never heard directly. Yeah, nothing. Crickets. Yeah. Even the crickets have mediators in between them.
It's not even a triangle. It's like an octagon. [Laughter] Something that I really appreciated, though, was that you let me know that that was happening. Because that's been an issue in the past, both with them and with that school that was involved at the time. Which that story is in the book. Of people going behind my back and just, not just like middle school gossip, but like blatant disclosures that they had no right to give. Like, it's an outing, it's a doxing. It's not okay. It's a violation of betrayal, of trust. And that has been a big issue in the past, and a pattern. And I think it's an example of how you provide safety for me, because you just communicated directly. Not involving. I didn't get on your phone and respond, or anything like that. Like I stayed out of it, because it was not my conversation. Which is ironic, because it was not their conversation either. [Laughter] But, but of just saying, “This is what they said. Here's how I'm going to respond. How are you feeling about that?” And then not just the content, but our relationship. “How are you feeling about this?” Like you attended to me and focused on our relationship, not the drama that was getting thrown at us. And not even how to handle the drama, but literally, I not going to handle the drama, and I want to attend to you. “Are you feeling okay? What has this brought up for you? How are you feeling? How can I help? How can I support you with this?” That was really beautifully done. I just want to thank you. I love you. I love you too.
I feel like one of the issues that this touches is the idea of taboos. That there's some things that are just forbidden, you can't touch them. They are the cursed objects, the curse language, you can't do these things. But outside of that circle of really abuse or violence or whatever is going on, like I'm not interested in maintaining those taboos. They are destructive. And so to treat, if I were to treat that communication with this person as another secret, that would be me buying into the taboo. And I don't want to feed it with my own secrecy. So, I will just be straightforward in speaking the truth about it. Communicating with you. Making sure that you're okay. Communicating with her. Making sure she's okay. But I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna play the game of “you can't say this.” I just don't think it's healthy.
I appreciated that modeling too, of, it goes back to they're not my secrets. Not at all. And I actually have, even though I'm not done with therapy, I actually had done my work to sort through the shock of things. I think it's part of why I'm so tired right now, like, generally weary. It's not a depression. Like, you struggle with depression, and you shared about your depression on System Speak. Yeah. But my experience is not that kind of depression. It's a moral weariness. It's a-. Like a spiritual, emotional. Yes. Like I've been at warfare for so long and I'm just weary. I'm not giving up. I'm not going to quit. I'm not letting go or surrendering or in crisis even. I'm just, because I'm learning to feel my feelings and to tolerate my feelings, I'm just aware that I'm tired. From having so many big feelings about so many big experiences that have been so deeply wounding. Yeah. This being one of them. Because they are people that we care about. And because of that betrayal, and their perceived betrayal that I have hurt them, there is just pain there. And so it's like, there's nothing left to hold on to. And I think it's an interesting season in my life because that's how I feel about the previous Kelly too. Where I'm like, “You were good, and you were safe, and you were helping me. What, what happened? Like, why did you let your burnout destroy our relationship?” And she was like, “You were my favorite client? Why did this, why did you hurt me by saying all these things?” I’m like, “Because I'm not supposed to be a favorite client.” [Laughter]
So I think it also felt triggering not just from the past, but from things in the present, too. And when you struggle with relationships, because of attachment issues and because of trauma, and you say, “I work really hard on friendships,” or “I work really hard on attachments,” but this goes wrong and this goes wrong and this goes wrong. And in therapy, this goes wrong, this goes wrong, this goes wrong. And even with my family, this goes wrong, this goes wrong, this goes wrong. Then it's really hard not to just say, “Clearly the problem is me.” Except that you're here. Yeah. And our relationship is good, and it's been through the wringer. [Laughter] Not because of us, because of circumstances, because of life. Life has been hard. We knew it would be. But our life just honestly, and transparently—I don't think that's a secret to anyone—our life together has been very difficult. It's the Wedding Ringer. [Laughter] Oh, my goodness. But we are good. Like we're solid even though it's been so hard. And I have friends like Peter, or my friends from group.
And for the first time, I'm like, “No, wait. I don't think it's that I can't do relationships. I think it's that I'm learning what healthy relationships look like.” And the more healthy relationships I build, the more of those I actually get to keep. Yeah. Which is a powerful thing, but also comes with it. It reminds me of adoption from foster care. Like the kids, we love that they're adopted. We celebrate their adoptions. But adoption is also grief. Yeah. Because there's the tragedy that brought them to the point of needing to be adopted. And so I feel like I'm, I'm in a phase-. I think part of what's making me weary right now is that I'm in a phase of recognizing how beautiful my good deep friendships are, that I've worked so hard to develop, and the grief that comes with recognizing the relationships I so want to have, and be close to people, like my family, these family members, or-. Sorry, I just heard about other things I want to talk about next. I'm letting it pass. Or other friendships that I really tried so hard to make them work. But I can't make them work by myself. And I have lost them and I grieve them. So I'm kind of in a place, I feel like I'm experiencing both. Like I feel like I'm safely landing in good, beautiful friendships and relationships, and it's a wonderful thing because it means healing is happening. But part of that healing is letting go of what's not good for me. Yes. And there's so much grief there. Oh, yes.
And I think when it's someone that you worked really hard to protect when you were young, like when I was little I worked so hard to protect them. And I worked so hard to keep them safe. And I worked so hard to be their best friend, and be the safe person in their life. Like I tried really, really hard. And now they're like, “You're evil. I hate you.” It basically feels like parenting. [Laughter] Where also you pour your heart into someone and they're like, “No!!!” [Laughter] But that also is that same dynamic of, “Oh, okay. That's evidence this isn't actually healthy.” Because that's not the same.
Like my friend Peter, he supports me in lots of ways, I support him in lots of ways, but we don't parents each other. Right. You and I are friends. You and I are married. You and I are tender and care for each other. You even do sweet things for Littles. I tried to do sweet things with a little aquarium boy in you that's not actually DID. But you know what I mean? Like, we tend to each other, don't we? Yeah. We tend to each other. We care for each other in the ways that we can. But we don't parent each other. Right. And there's, there's something that even if I don't have it figured out yet, I'm getting better at, because I can check in with my friends even when it's weeks. Like I've missed group or something. I can say, “Hey, just checking in. This is what's going on for me.” And they respond. They are responsive. Which is different than people who don't participate in your life and then judge you for it. Yeah. But, but they respond. But they don't rescue me, or they don't parent me. Like, there's, it's so much healthier. Yeah. And I feel like the more that I experienced that, the more that I'm also like, I miss what that could be, but I can very clearly see it's not. Which is actually what helped me finally let go of the previous Kelly. Because it became so clear that waiting for that, and trying for that, or holding out for that, it's just not going to work. It wasn't going to happen. Yeah. And that it was me putting myself through that.
We've talked before about how in some psychological models they talked about when you're a little baby, you have, you're basically making recordings of your experiences, and you're also recording your caregivers, right? And as an adult, you have a sort of mediating ability to say, “Okay, this piece that I got, doesn't work anymore.” At least ideally, this is how it works, right? That you can filter between these. There are plenty of things that make that filtering ability more difficult. But I feel like with someone like this person, the triggers for him send him right back to those infancy recordings, make him feel unsafe like he was unsafe as a child, and so his response is to reenact the things that he knew his parents did when he was a child. Right? To be controlling, to be emotionally abusive, to use that aggression as a way of protecting his inner child that never had the defenses that it needed to be safe. And I guess in cases of DID, that's even more literal than us fish tank people.
For those who don't, who missed previous episodes, I've talked about how I feel like I have an associative disorder. Like I have all the different selves inside myself. Parts of me are very creative, and parts of me are very boring and serious, and parts of me are very focused, and parts of me love being a dad, and parts of me hate being a dad. Like I have all the same parts that I would if I was dissociated, it's just, they all slosh around together like in a big fish tank. They don't have, they don't have the distinct barrier separating them. So I just sort of flow between them, right?
So yeah, I feel, I feel bad for him that he is trapped in that, in that big ugly moment of being in danger. Which is so tragic. Yeah. And so sad. But also is a moment where I go, “Oh, okay. It really was that bad…” Yeah. “…or what's happening now would not be happening now.” And both of them want so much to be good parents. Yeah. And the work that they have done on their family is so beautiful that I know if one of their children went through what happened to me when they were 17, there's no way they would do to their child what our family did to me. Yeah. It would not have gotten so big or taken so long or sorted out so much. Like, there's no way they would do that. Because they-. Even with what they are still struggling with, they have worked so hard to be good parents, and beautiful parents, and trying so hard with their family. And doing that is so important. And when we say, “Oh look, there's a big problem that's still happening from when you were 17.” I'm like, “That's what we call neglect.” Yeah. That's what we call neglect. That I've been saying for, like, how old are we now? 30 years, 20 years, I don't even know. I've been saying, “Hey, this is a problem. We need to talk about it.” Now you're like, “Whoa, there's this problem. We're not talking about it.” That's what I'm saying. [Laughter] That's what I'm saying. I mean, I’m not at all making light of it. And-. I love being able to acknowledge, though, that they have made generational progress. Isn't it amazing? Yeah. It's amazing. I'm so stinking proud of them. I really am. I'm so, so proud of them. What they have done. Yeah.
And I know even this issue is not even about me being bad. I mean, that's what they're saying. And I know that's what they think. But I know that under those layers, this is not about me being bad. This is about their version of the ideal parent being tarnished. Yes. And that idealization being shattered. And that that absolutely does not have permission to happen. Because for them, that is the dissociative wall. Yes. And so they can not acknowledge what was wrong, because then they will remember and feel what there was to know.
But, I think this is also where I get sucked in, even by default, even without any contact. They've not seen us in five or 10 years. [Laughter] Like, this whole thing about cutting us out of their life. Like-. Been there, done that. Can't cut us anymore. [Laughter] But, but I think I think that's part of why it's so rich in my head. Like, I'm holding it because he's not. Like, how different is that from childhood? Like, I'm still, “I will bear all of this so that you are free from it.” And then he's like, “Oh, look at all the stuff you're carrying. That's ugly. That's wrong. That's not okay.” It isn't. It isn't.
So in that situation if you are the rescuer and he is the victim, is there an active perpetrator or is it-? Me for speaking it out loud. And then him for not. Like, we do it to each other, right?
But, I mean that's where it's out of balance. I mean, that's where you can see what's toxic. Yeah. Is I'm saying all of this is awful. And he's like, “No, that's not even real.” Yeah, like the puzzle pieces don't match up together. Yeah. Or, or the balance of, “Well, I know these pieces are wrong. But this is the best way that I can express it.” Sure. Or, “That's not how you remember it, but this is the best that I can say it.” Or, “In the editing process, this is the best that we could write it.” Yeah. And he's saying, “No, this piece is wrong, this-.” Like, on the spectrum; very black and white. Very, “Page 983, second paragraph, should be stricken.” Like legalistic.
Well, again, I feel like if you are not feeling in a position of safety, then there's no room for nuance. Oh, like my therapist was saying about—Oh, yeah, exactly like that.—being in control to be safe. Something like, what was? Security is often, it often turns into just control. Yeah, it's nuanced. Still impinges on your boundaries. You can't, you can't deal with something that is both, or something that is a combination, or-. Yeah. It's just because you're not safe. If you're not feeling safe, you can't feel comfortable with those things.
Like, I think about your mom. I love your mom. I'm so glad I got to meet her. I am aware that she participated in the abuse that you experienced as a child. So, she's this wonderful person who also was an abuser. And, like, that's hard for me to think of those things at the same time. I can't imagine what it's like for you. That's got to be especially hard if you're not healthy enough to open yourself up to those kinds of thoughts. If your entire identity is built on a particular story of yourself and of your childhood and of your family, then it becomes an existential crisis to think that something there is not stable. Yeah.
What was good about my mom?
She was funny. [Laughter] She had a very dry wit, didn't she? She was. I liked that in-. I was delighted by her sense of drive, which I can understand would be problematic at times. But, like, her willingness to cheat at games just to win. Her determination. Like when her dogs were escaping from under the fence in her backyard, she went and got pieces of rock from all over to block up the hole. Like, she did an extraordinary amount of work also conning other people into helping her, but she was really determined. [Laughter] That's not something everybody could have done. And we talked about how, at the last Christmas that we had with her, she said it was the best Christmas. That it was the Christmas she had always dreamed of. And so I think that's part of it, is that I can, I have a sense of who she is in her heart Who she wanted to be if circumstances had been different.
She felt so unloved. Yeah. So rejected by her own family. So betrayed and abandoned by them when she wanted to divorce my dad. Yeah. But in those days you didn't get divorces. She literally had to leave the State to be able to get a divorce when our lives depended on it. Yeah. And-. She had to single parent while also being extremely depressed, while also having chemical dependencies, while also having physical pain, while having cancer. Like, that was a lot. Yeah, yeah.
Remember when she took her boobs to church? Oh, my goodness. [Uproarious Laughter] Tell that story. It is-. Was it her last time coming to church with us? Yeah, she just came a few times right before she died. And she wore a dress that, you know, was showing off the girls. [Laughter] Which the girls were not in their best shape at that point, either. But she, you know, was checking out the cute 12 year olds. And she told me that if I was not a good husband to her daughter that she would come and haunt me. And now she has through text message. She also kept trying to steal you from me.
So there were these things that she was like, “Oh, that was so funny.” And then you're like, “No, that's pretty cringe worthy.” Going after the 12 year old boys, and after your daughter's husband. Yeah. It's one of those things where it's subtle and you kind of excuse away, and then you're like, “No, that's more evidence that things were not right.” Yeah.
She endured such tragedy. Yes. Again and again and again. But again, with nuance. We, we love her while also acknowledging the harm that was done. It's really hard to do both at the same time. We know that she was, you know, another middleman in is a long chain of abuse that happens in this world. But when she was finally able to pull herself out, she certainly was not the same as she was while she was still trapped in that position, even if she was carrying lingering consequences from that period of her life.
And as hard as things were, it's also true I wouldn't be who I am or where I am without her. She was the first one in her family to be a girl who got educated. And that's the only reason I went to school, even though she wasn't very helpful with that process. [Laughter] I knew it was important. You know? Like, I got a work ethic from her. Yeah. And from that drive. Goodness, we would not have survived the last 10 years if I didn't have the drive I got from her. Absolutely.
And her family wouldn't let her get divorced. But when things escalated to be life and death, she still did what it took. Like, not that that solved all our problems. But she did that. Like, at some point, eventually, she went, “Okay, enough's enough.” Yeah. And especially back in that day and time, which was like before therapy mostly, right? No. Therapy was not like it is now, accessible like it is now, or talked about like it is now. And she went. I mean, she left. She got out of that.
There have been times talking about her single-. I didn't know we're gonna talk about her tonight. Thanks a lot. [Laughter] Look how much progress, because I can, right? Like, I'm doing it. Yep. Not that I would, not that I would talk to my therapist. [Laughter] But you can talk to an invisible audience of strangers and acquaintances. [Laughter] It's different somehow. It's actually become harder since they become acquaintances. It was much easier when it was just myself. [Laughter] I’m serious. Now it's much harder.
Anyway, I have thought about her, actually, and her single parenting a lot since you've been gone the last year. There were not as many of us as there are children that we have. But sometimes I think we probably had some of the same problems. Because trauma, even if it didn't look the same. And she was on her own without any of the training that I have.
Like you and I basically run an inpatient unit [Laughter] simply because of my education. If we didn't have the experience that I have, or the education-. And I don't mean that to show off about me. I mean, that's how we've been able to handle what we've handled. Yeah. But I don't think we necessarily should have. And it's hard sometimes to protect whoever is functioning that day. I mean, whichever children are doing okay, so that we don't expose them to more trauma when one of them is screaming or throwing things or something. But I thought about that. Like, there are some days that the only reason I can get out of my bed, and go face that, and go put on my parenting hat or self or whatever, is because I remember what it's like to be on the other side of the closed door waiting for help. And I just can't do that to them. I just can't. And I don't know if that's the like only way I've improved on parenting from my generation for the next. But I go out there. Yeah. Even when it's hard and when I'm tired.
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This conversation will be continued in the next episode.
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