Transcript: Episode 139
139. Maybe It Was Easier (1 of 2)
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
Interviewer: Bold Font
Interviewee: Standard Font
I thought you were going to keep playing your games, instead of talking to me.
[Laughs] You are more important than any game that I could save the status of so that I could get back to it later. [Laughs]
[Laughs] It’s so funny, because you’re not even a gamer, gamer.
No, that’s funny, because --
You’re like a nerd gamer.
It’s not really how I operate. I just love you, and I’d put aside anything, because I love you.
Aww.
You can hear my heart beating - thump thump, thump thump.
[Laughs] That’s really creepy.
[Laughs] Creepy romantic?
[Laughs] Who are you?!
This is why we don’t do podcasts late at night, dear.
We’re not even sitting up, we’re so tired.
Merry Christmas.
Oh my goodness. Also, this is the problem with being out of town for three months, because I don’t know who you are.
Oh, well hi. My name is Nathan, and I’ll be your husband for the evening.
[Laughs] No, I do know who you are. I just mean, hi, stranger.
Getting acquainted. Mmhmm.
That was a long time.
It was a very long time.
What was the hardest part for you?
[Sighs]
Children?
Children, yeah.
It’s a lot of children all by yourself.
It’s a lot of children. I love our children, but there’s a lot of them, and I’m very introverted, and I struggle with depression. And, for half the time, because of insurance reasons, my medicine wasn’t available. So, it was rough.
That was a whole drama happening at the same time I was having war dramas and Airbnb dramas.
[Laughs]
I was out of the country, trying to get our insurance renewed. [Laughs]
Yeah.
But, we did it.
Mmhmm.
And really, sometimes when we’re so overwhelmed, things like that, that are such simple things, are actually a really big deal.
Oh, yeah.
And so, I’m proud of us for getting that done.
When I’m overwhelmed, checking my email is a big deal, listening to a voicemail is a big deal. It’s one of my signs that I know that I’m struggling, because otherwise sometimes I don’t notice.
Oh, really?
But, if I can’t open an email, then I know that something is wrong.
Wow. I didn’t know that.
Yeah.
Depression is rough.
Yeah, I don’t recommend it. So, I had a realization the other day, that you and I talked about, you and I, or at least one of you and I.
[Laughs]
About how the other day I was having a rough depression day, and I recognized the feeling of despair that I was having, that it was the same kind of -- if this makes sense -- the same flavor of despair that I used to feel when I was alone and waiting for you.
Aww.
And I thought, Well, that doesn’t even make sense. My life has changed so much since then. It should not be the same thing. Right? And, it really struck home to me that my depression really isn’t just moping, and it’s not just being lazy, but it’s the same thing that comes and goes, and it’s more like I have a chronic illness. And, as I’ve started thinking of depression as a chronic illness, it’s helped me to feel more compassion toward myself. I started being able to differentiate between those sorts of negative thoughts when I’m having a depression day, and my sort of actual more clear-minded thoughts. Which, I don’t know if for you that would be a discussion between two different People.
Hmm.
But, for me, I feel those separate things inside myself, even though I recognize they’re both myself.
That’s fascinating.
Yeah, I feel like learning about dissociative identity disorder has helped me understand my own brain better. And, knowing that I also have all of these parts, they just squash together.
So, even though you don’t have DID, understanding about DID has helped you understand yourself.
Yeah, absolutely.
Hmm.
Absolutely.
I think what you shared helps me too, because we are in a place that is different than ever before. We’ve talked about it a little bit in that we worked for three years, to sort of learn what safe is, and that now time is safe, and we have you, and we have the therapist, and now we have, like, a best friend, besides you.
Mmhmm.
Sorry, honey. No, I’m kidding. So, having friends and having you and having the support system that we’ve never really had before, to the extent that we do now. And, long term, because we met her at the beginning of last year, right, and so -- I mean, the beginning of this year -- and so that’s the longest we’ve ever had a friend, besides you.
Hehe.
Just want to clarify.
I win.
[Laughs] And so, that’s a big deal, and it changes things in ways that I didn’t expect. And so, I don’t know, I’ve been trying to put this into words for weeks, actually, and it’s really hard. There’s something about being at that level of safety, and finally recognizing it, that feels so hugely good, and so powerfully right, and so amazingly safe, like off the charts, that it’s almost comfortable in a way that I want to stay. And, I feel like sometimes there’s a struggle between wanting to just stay in that space, and not have to deal with the past. That feels very much like creating someone new for that, except it’s different, because I’m still here, and I’m aware of it. And, I don’t know how better to explain that.
But, the difference is that because you know about the DID and the past, and the therapist knows about the DID and the past, and our friends know about the DID and the past, which is also new. That’s never happened before either.
Yes.
And so --
And, we all still love you.
I know, it’s so weird, right?
[Laughs]
It completely trips me out. But, because of that, to actually be friends, and honor all of those relationships in those ways, for it to be authentic and positive and continuing, I also can’t pretend that’s not there.
Mm.
And so, it doesn’t become someone new, and it doesn’t become a comfortable place. What is safe actually becomes uncomfortable, in that I’m pushed to both address and include all of those other layers as well. Do you see what I’m saying? And, it’s really, really hard, because if it were just someone who only liked a part of me, which has happened in the past.
Yeah.
And, we have talked about that in different scenarios, even before we even moved to Kansas City -- we talked about that happening in different ways. And so, it’s kind of a way that we’ve been violated or traumatized several times, where one Part was favored by somebody and it caused problems, or something. But, because that’s not happening, and we’re so completely accepted, and so completely loved, we even, as a system, can’t deny certain Parts, or can’t deny the hard things that we need to talk about.
Mm.
Does that make sense?
It does.
So, part of me would like to say, “Well, we’re safe now, and we’re good, and we’re aware of each other, so, we’ve made all of this progress in three years.” It took us three years to learn that. It’s literally --
It’s a big deal.
Yeah! It’s been three years since we first emailed the therapist.
Mm.
Three years since we first emailed her, three years, almost three years since we got our appointment, even though she was so booked out. We didn’t see her until the end of March, I think. But, it’s been almost three years. And so, part of me would like to be like, “Look! We’ve made all this progress, and we’re actually functioning better. We have a job. We have friends. We’re in our marriage. We’re parenting better. All of these pieces are in place.”
Mmhmm.
“And so, can’t we just stop?”
Stop the therapy?
Well, stop all of it. Can we just not be DID anymore.
Oh! [Laughs]
Can we just not do therapy anymore? Can we just not have the past there anymore? Can we just stay in this safe world we created? Like, there’s this pull to just be comfortable, because it’s been so hard for so long. What is okay is that being a respite from so many years of it being hard, a respite from doing the hard work on a daily basis. But, what it can’t be is an escape.
Yeah.
Because these relationships are so authentic that I can’t escape that, and still be present in the relationships, because they require that authenticity.
Yeah.
Which is part of what makes them healthy.
Yeah.
It has blown me away.
If you think back to the people who have not been safe, in the past, people who have persecuted you, or endangered you in these various ways, would you say that any of them knew the truth of you?
No.
Even though some of them knew DID, and some of them knew about your background, none of them actually know you, like who you are as a person.
Right, right.
And so, it’s fascinating that part of your trauma is feeling so scared that people are against you, or that you’re not safe around them, but in truth, the people who love you the most are the people who know you the best.
Oh, that’s exactly right.
And we know you all the way to the bottom, as best as anybody can, probably, and we love all of you. We don’t just love the charismatic bits, or the scholarly bits, or the funny bits, or the childlike bits, or the creative bits, we love all of you. We love the sad bits, and the hard bits, and the --
Boring bits.
Boring bits, and the traumatized bits, and all the bits.
There’s so much there. So, I got to see the therapist.
Mmhmm.
On the podcast, we’ve already talked about that we have to change therapists. So, people who listen know that that’s happening, and that it’s been sort of a big deal, the way that it unfolded, significant enough that it got our attention, because it’s impossibly hard to do. Like, it’s so hard to leave her.
Yeah.
And --
But, it’s working, like, it’s happening.
Right, we’re doing it.
Yeah.
But, we did get to see her, to say “goodbye”, because mostly, how all of that unfolded, we were out of the country when that happened.
Yeah.
So, I basically wrote her a letter and sent it, which is terrible, except we were gone. It wasn’t really avoidance, we were literally gone, and it was part of the notebooks, which we wrote in every day, so that’s how it unfolded.
And you were also in communication with her, right?
Right.
When you could, texting or emailing.
And, when I would.
Yes.
Because we still have that thing of when it gets that real is when we hide the most, which endangers what is best for us, because that’s the exact moment we should connect. So, why is that hard?
History…trauma.
Ugh.
It’s like the kids who learn certain behaviors from when they were abused as small children, and are trying to use the same behaviors, but it’s counterproductive now, and sort of destructive, rather than life-saving.
I appreciate that framework, because I don’t mean to do it.
Yeah.
And, I’m not trying to hurt them, and it’s when I need it the most. And, it’s not like drama in a gamey way, like, I’m not doing it on purpose to try and get something out of it. Like, I can’t stop it, and I know it’s hurting them, and I know it’s hurting me, but I don’t know how to fix it.
That is what therapy is for.
Uh, I don’t even like you.
[Laughs]
I don’t. But, here’s what’s different too, than other friends in the past, is that you just stay present with me, because you’re here, and you’re stuck with me.
Yeah.
And, you’re just gentle and kind.
I choose you.
Uh. And that’s what my friend does too. Like, she just stays there, and she checks in, but she’s not mad at me for being human. You aren’t mad at me for having these challenges.
No.
And so, for the first time, part of being accepted includes understanding what is hard for me in the limitations because of that, but that’s also exactly what opens up the space for me to do it differently, so that I can say to you, or to her, “This is a really hard day for me, because of this.” Or even, “I’m not sure why, but here’s what I’m feeling, and I will check back in with you.” Or being able to communicate in some way, as we keep enduring. The same as you do with depression. You tell me. You’ve learned to tell me, “I’m having a hard depression day, this is not about you.” And you communicating that to me directly.
Yeah.
And, it’s such a huge thing for our relationship, whether it’s you and me, or me and my friends, that we can communicate and just say this is what’s happening. And then receive that presence.
Yeah, it just is what it is, knowing that it’s not some sort of game. I’m not saying, “Oh, I’m depressed”, when really I’m sending messages to you about how unhappy I am, and how you should change. Right?
Right.
It’s just a statement of…I just say what’s happened with me, and you accept that as a truth, and like you say, we’re being present with each other.
It somehow provides some kind of constancy that makes that safety three-dimensional.
Hmm.
And so between you and the friend and the therapist, it’s created this whole safety network of support.
It’s so good.
It’s so amazing though, because it opens up the possibility for things to be different.
Yeah.
Because then, even on a hard day, when I’m struggling with those things, or with memories or something, then it’s not just about the risk to the relationship, because the relationship is safe. I know that no matter what, the therapist is still there. I know, no matter what, you are still there.
Yeah.
I know that no matter what, my friend is still there. And, so, I no longer have to worry about those things being at risk. And, so, when I’m hurting or struggling, I can focus on why it’s hurting, or what the struggle is. And, it just makes the healing exponential, because the healing is still there. And, what I think that has happened that’s so terrifying is that I finally believe it.
[Chuckles]
Yeah?
Yeah, that’s vulnerable.
But, it’s terrifying. I mean, I guess that’s --
I have that effect on people.
You’re so scary.
I’m so scared.
When I saw the therapist to talk about the letter we had sent, and talk about seeing the new therapist, and she’s sort of giving us permission, or encouraging us to talk to the new therapist, like we’re not betraying her.
Yeah.
Which is what it feels like, and it’s heartbreaking, and so there’s lots of layers to work through to get to that. But, she’s done it so well, and it hurts so much, like we miss her, and it’s hard.
Yeah.
But, she has been so gracious about it, and has been so present still, even in that transition.
Because it turns out that saying “good bye” does not have to be a betrayal.
Oh my goodness, who are you?
[Laughs]
Oh my goodness.
Right, because so often goodbye comes after someone breaks your heart, but turns out, it can also just be a parting of paths.
What the what?! Don’t you wiggle your eyebrows at me.
[Laughs] I will wiggle them loud enough for the podcast to hear.
Oh my goodness. Okay, you just blew my brains out.
Pretty sure that’s not the idiom. [Laughs]
I said it wrong again, didn’t I?
Blew my mind?
Okay, that.
[Laughs]
Deaf people. Oh my goodness. Well okay, here’s what I’m trying to tell you.
Yes, please.
All of that nonsense, all of what I’m trying to tell you is, that while we were talking with her, one of the things that we were telling her, or trying to say -- which was not effective at all, because we’re like [mumbles] when we try to talk to her. But, one of the things that we said was about how we know that these are the pieces that she gave us in these three years, so that now, even though it’s going to be hard, we know that we’re ready to talk about the hard things.
Yeah.
So, at the airport, on the way home, we found a free book on the free book table, but it was about DID. And one of the quotes in it was talking about how part of getting better is being able to face what happened without minimizing it.
Mmm.
And, so, I was sharing that quote with her, and somehow we ended up on something about my mom, who you knew.
Yes.
You met her at the end, right before she died, you met her.
Yeah.
And, I said something to her, to the therapist -- I said something -- I don’t remember exactly, because you know --
Someone else remembers.
Something like that. But, there was something said about the example of instead of just saying, “I’m ready to talk about the hard things, or I need to talk about the hard things”, we need to actually just say abuse.
Wow. Yeah.
Right, because it’s a way of minimizing, it’s a way of softening the blow.
It is, yeah.
And, language is actually really important to us, because of the writing. It’s important to you so you understand the heaviness of that. But, she was saying -- and so she asked something, as a follow up question to that, and we said, “Well, she was unwell, and she was also an addict, because of the pain medications, and we know what that was like, and that made her mean sometimes.” And, she said, as she always does with her truth bombs -- said something about maybe it was easier to tell yourself that she was unwell, than to know that she just hurt you.
Hmm.
And, she talked about that. And, she said that no one should have to recover from their childhood.
It’s kind of -- it’s kind of the fairytale mother conundrum, right, because you have good mothers, and you have wicked stepmothers. And there, in a way, in a child’s way of perceiving two parts of their own mother, right? That how is it possible the good mother, and the exasperated angry mother are even the same person? So, your mother, when I knew her, was someone you worked very hard to mend your relationship and to care for and to love. And so, how do you reconcile that as being the same person who was complicit in your abuse? How, when you were committed to loving someone, can you also acknowledge that she did terrible things that hurt you? And saying that she was unwell is definitely a way of explaining it, or excusing it, or softening it. Maybe you need to find the right story to understand how the mother can be both the good mother and the stepmother, and to love them both.
Mm.
Your forgiveness may be part of what transforms her. Because, when I knew her, she was definitely difficult, but she was not a monster. And, I think you are part of why.
Those were really hard years.
Mmhm. You worked really hard at them, that’s why they were hard, because you really invested yourself in trying to heal that relationship. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean you’re doing it wrong.
Well, can I read you something I wrote about it?
Yes.
[Laughs]
I don’t know, can you? I’m sure your mom would have picked up on that.
Oh my goodness. Okay, so part of the beginning of it is a little churchy, only because I was sending it to her in the context of --
You send this to the therapist?
I sent this to the therapist in the context of our conversation that we had.
Got it.
Which included --
Talking about your mom.
We talked about changing wards.
Yes.
And so, it’s a little churchy, but only at the beginning.
Okay.
So, that’s just for people who want to skip 30 seconds or something.
I’ll try not to be offended.
[Laughs] Try not to be offended?
[Laughs]
Okay, I forgot I started out with that, or I would have just offered to read it. Here we go. Now I’m shy. [Laughs]
Okay, here it says -- it’s like a poem, okay? So, don’t laugh. I can’t do it. [Laughs] I changed my mind.
Mmm.
Okay. Okay, okay. Whew. Only because I don’t want to deal with your banter. She taught me about the word banter. We’ll talk about that later.
It is worship to look through the night,
and see a Christmas star.
It is worship to follow my wise women to the savior -- because the three wise men, right? I have those three friends.
I love it.
That’s why I said that.
It is worship to trust a God so real,
that even as a baby,
he cried and screamed,
much like I do about so many things.
The holidays and new year smell like something reminiscent,
a fog too thick to see through,
too hard to remember.
Except, for the first time,
it is not a year I want to escape.
It was good this year,
my first good year.
I loved what this year brought,
these souls worth keeping,
where I’m not alone,
because God’s with us.
I feel like this year, for my heart, and my spirit -- I feel like, this year, for my heart and my spirit, was like the year we met. Which turned out to be a hard year, by the end of it.
Yeah.
Like, with dead parents and everything, and --
But, you found new soulmates this year.
Right, right. And so, even talking about you picking a word each year, for the new year, right, and the theme of that, and I’m so grateful, that for the first time in ages -- like, it’s been so many hard years. We had so many things happen to our family, and we’ve endured so much, and I feel like this year, I was so, so nourished. Like, there’s lots of things still hard, and we still have six kids, and we still have all these things, right?
Yeah.
And, we were gone. Like, we had this long trip for the work and everything, and we’re getting ready to leave again. I don’t mean that it’s easy. I just mean that it was good, it was so good in some ways.
Yeah.
Okay, sorry.
But while they talk -- oh, we wrote this when we left, when we ran out of church, when we were in the van, that’s when I wrote this. Okay…
While they talk of the star,
and music paints the nativity,
something happens in me.
I’m afraid and it hurts,
like the night.
Okay, this part is a little hard. Maybe a lot hard. I need to say it out loud, and I’m going to share it with you, and I think it’s important to share on the podcast, so I’m trying. [Breathes out] Okay.
I remember the dark.
I remember how cold it was.
I remember the walls,
The four walls closing in on me as time left me behind.
I remember being hungry.
I remember the taste of blood in my mouth.
I remember I couldn’t get out.
I want to run away.
I cannot breathe.
Maybe it was easier to tell yourself, you said.
Because remember we had that conversation? Okay.
Well, maybe it is easier to run away than to stay.
Maybe it is easier to disconnect than to feel.
Maybe it is easier to disappear than to miss you.
Maybe it is easier to avoid than to remember.
Maybe it is easier to hide than to be forgotten.
Except, the star still shines, as if it remembers, as if the baby knows.
I remember crayons in my pocket,
and coloring on the walls,
telling stories,
telling secrets,
scribbling in the dark,
locked in the chest.
I remember not being able to see what I colored,
and so turning the crayons into dolls,
like action figures in the dark,
until they became friends, until they became real.
I remember learning to paint entire worlds in the air,
where no one could see, in the dark,
because it was easier to tell myself I could create a world,
than to face being abandoned in it.
It was easier to tell myself I had friends,
even if they were crayons,
than to know that no one was coming to help me.
It was easier to make up stories than to tell secrets.
It was easier to pretend and play on purpose,
than to be locked in there,
cold and hungry and forgotten.
It was easier to tell myself I could color in the dark,
than for shadows to fall.
It was easier, you said,
to tell myself my mother was unwell,
than to know she hurt me.
It was easier to tell myself that I couldn’t remember,
than to know my father touched me.
It was easier to tell myself I needed no one,
than to say what I was used for.
It was easier to tell myself that I am bad,
and apologize to the world for existing,
than to admit I was unwanted and uncared for.
It was easier to tell myself that they were not my parents,
than to confess that they did not parent me.
It was easier to tell myself I forgot,
than to remember how much it hurt.
It was easier to tell myself that I didn’t have to recover from my childhood, because I never had one,
because I never was.
It was easier to tell myself I couldn’t see a star,
than to see the shadows where it shined,
except it does shine,
and I see through the cracks.
And, if I’m not alone in the dark anymore,
and you are there,
and God was already waiting,
then maybe it’s a valley I can walk through,
as long as the star still shines in the night.
That was amazing. Thank you for sharing that.
Thanks for listening.
I love all of you.
I love all of your snacks.
[Laughs]
[Laughs] I can use humor to deflect.
I have something for you.
Oh dear.
You don’t necessarily have to have this on the podcast, but this came to my mind as you were reading the poem. And so, do you remember when we were kids, they used to advertise that little glow worm doll? It looked kind of like a caterpillar, it was green, a green stuffy with kind of a yellow face and a little nightcap on?
Uh huh.
And when you would hug it, its little face would glow?
Uh huh.
I am giving the glow worm to the girl in the box.
Aww.
She won’t see me put it there, but she can hold it and see that light, and feel love. It’s the light of my love to you. So she can see her drawings if she wants to, and she’ll know that there is light, and that there are people coming who love her. Merry Christmas to that little girl.
You’re going to make me cry. That’s not why I was even telling all that. We were supposed to talk about EMDR. Why are we talking about me? I don’t even like you. I mean, thank you.
I’m trying really hard to stay present, actually, because I know we’re recording, and so I don’t want to get all… switchy.
Can I give another present?
Oh my goodness.
To someone else?
Is it for me, or is it for something who’s not here?
I think it’s for someone who’s not here.
Ugh! Cheater.
Um, in the backyard, I am putting up an amazing treehouse. This is a treehouse for Dawn. It has a ladder that she can climb, and when she’s up in there, she can pull up the ladder, so she’s safe, and no one can get to her. And, it has windows all around, so she can see everything that’s going on, and know that she is safe. And, there’s a rope, with a pulley, that goes all the way over to the house, so she can send notes if she wants to, and she can ask for astronaut ice cream if she wants to, and she can have the things she needs. There’s even a soft place to sleep.
I know that she is one who helped to protect you by trying to run away. And, I know that throughout your life, she has tried to protect you by running away. And, I want her to know that I love her, and that right now, she doesn’t need to run away, that she can be safe. So, she has a place that’s her own. It’s brand new. It hasn’t been touched by anyone who’s mean to her. She’s the only one who has permission, unless she lets someone else come in.
She can choose to do that if she wants to, but I know she’s a loner. I want her to be happy.
I don’t know how you do that.
Is it pretty? Does she like it?
[silence]
Good. Merry Christmas.
I love you.
[Break]
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