Transcript: Episode 120
120. Email Encouragement
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
[Note: The contents of emails being read in this episode are in italics.]
So after the recent episodes with the Stronghold System, Sarah Clark and her article about the Structural Dissociation Theory being ableist, and then the follow up episode that was about sort of the clinical response to her questions and the questions that I had trying to process the article that she wrote, Dr. Barach was super helpful and gave us lots of information.
But then after both episodes aired and he heard the Stronghold System interview, he also had one more point that was really important I wanted to share. He says: It sounds like there's some incorrect ideas about what is generally recommended these days as treatment for DID. I think if you take a look at the ISSTD treatment guidelines, you won't find what she says to be there. The term integration refers to better integrated functioning, not to fusion of all the altars into one. In fact, Kluft argues that fusion leads the most stable outcome of treatment. That's his opinion, but the only data on that point comes from a series of people he treated himself. Fusion doesn't always happen and it's clear that some people with DID don't want it.
And then he also shares: She's quoting one study that 12.8% of the people with DID reached integration fusion. This is one of Bethany Brand’s studies. And she's one of the ones we talked to and the interview was lost because of technology drama. Oh, so frustrating because it was so good. It was so so good. Clark didn't mention that an additional 12.8% ended treatment successfully without fusion of self-states. She also didn't mention that there were other big improvements in the treatment group such as reduced hospitalizations, reduce suicide attempts, and improved global assessment of functioning scores. All of that's good, you guys. We need to stay out of the hospital, and we need to stay healthy and well and alive. Please, let's help each other stay alive. So this is a good point. Dr. Barach is saying that Sarah Clark mentioned that that there was a 12% success rate of integration, but Dr. Barach is pointing out that the same study also reported a 12% success rate for those who did not choose integration, as well as other ways to measure success like staying out of the hospital and functioning better in areas like in work and relationships.
He goes on to say: There's nothing in the treatment guidelines saying that people with DID shouldn't hang out together or support each other. But there are warnings about self-help groups possibly leading to flooding and emotional distress, as well as other ways of acting out with each other. These things do happen. And I've met some people have had bad experiences in these groups. We too, have had bad experiences in the groups actually and are not on them. Like we're still in them. But we don't even check that account hardly ever anymore. Because it's been so awful, the things that have happened with those groups. And so you have to be really careful. If you're going there for information, and you can go in and learn and sort of get out. Or if you can go in and see who's safe and make friends and then leave it alone. Or if you can go in and handle all of those things. That's great. And there are some groups that try really hard to keep it safe. I mean, obviously, that's why they're there. But so much stuff happens off list and so much drama happens with people from the groups even if it doesn't happen in the group. And even we tried to make those friends and then lost them. Like, it's just too much. We're done. We can't do it. So I agree with him there.
People act out what they do not know how to talk about yet, and others around them may not recognize when this happens. So there are risks, but clearly some support groups can be helpful. So he brings up a good point that support groups can be a good thing. But also, it's a high risk behavior because you're engaging with other people who are struggling with similar things. And so when Sarah talks about peer-to-peer support, there are some amazing things that are good about that. And when we talk about finding other support groups the way mental health and physical health encourages connection and support in other ways, that's amazing. And when we talk about people having access to support at other times, that is great. What we have found, though, is that-. But it also has some limitations. So you just need to be aware of what you're getting into, and aware of how you participate, and who you participate with, and what group you're in, and how to care for yourself in that context. So I hope that makes sense and add some more information. And I will update the blog with this response. Thank you so much again, Dr. Barach.
About the same episode, Lisa says: Oh, Power To The Plurals. Stronghold described borderline better than anyone I have ever known or read. ANP is always fronting. EP are fragments. I have no inner world. EP have no characteristics. I have always felt EP take over since childhood but never had vernacular. I have distinct childhood memories of me attempting to articulate this to my caregiver, knee high, looking up. So maybe five? So bravo Systemspeak. You and Stronghold nailed it once again. Keep up the good fight. Oh, thank you Lisa. I'm so glad that you found it helpful. That's, that makes me so happy that it helped describe some of what you've been experiencing. Especially since borderline is not something that we've talked about a lot on the podcast. So I'm really glad that that reached you and that you were able to listen and it was helpful. That's great. Thanks for sharing.
Lisa says: Here's a trigger warning for the BBC story regarding the legal case of woman Jenny Haynes with 2500 alters. She won her case against her father and he will die in prison. I am heartbroken for her younger self, but she was legally able to have a little bit of justice. And then they sent the link to the post. She has a PhD in legal study. And after hearing today's podcast regarding your upcoming interview with Stronghold System, I felt compelled to ask you to reach out to her if possible. Doing so could help the cause, but mainly may allow her to start healing because she sounds to be so alone in that regard. Thanks for all you do and all the hope you give us all. I've actually reached out to them since early in the summer before the case happened, when I first heard about the story and someone else referred me to her. And they are not interested at this time for anything that's not commercial. Which means I have to pay them. And we need more podcast supporters to be able to do that kind of thing. Some of the guests we would like to have only appear for a fee, and others do not charge. And the guests that we have engaged thus far have been so gracious to participate. But I can't make anyone participate that doesn't want to. And her team has declined to participate thus far. And her advisers are not allowing interviews at this time because of the appeals process. And so I hope that answers your question, I would love to talk to them if they ever want to be interviewed. And I even reassure them we don't have to talk about the case specifically at all. But at this time, they have declined that interview.
In fact, it's kind of an interesting process because there are sometimes people who want to be on the podcast just because they want to sell something, and that makes me uncomfortable. That's different from talking with someone who also has a book, or someone who also has a model of therapy that's interesting. Only coming just to market is-. People with DID are gonna sense that kind of inauthenticity pretty quickly. So that's kind of frustrating. And only twice have I sought after someone to interview them and see what their model is like or something, where it was so creepy and disturbing that I could not hear the interview. That's happened twice. And people keep emailing me about how “have you talked to someone about this style of therapy?” And it's really disturbing you guys. I don't want to air the interview. So I've just left it off. And I don't know if that's us being triggered or if it's really an issue. But I don't, I don't want to air the interview. I was uncomfortable when I talked to them.
So, we love having guests on the podcast. And we love those who have connections helping us have guests on the podcast. And we're very grateful for that. And this is a fantastic suggestion for all kinds of reasons. It's culturally relevant to our community, as well as the advocating that she has done and whatever her story is. But I can't make them tell it if they don't want to. And so thus far, they've not wanted to be on the podcast, and there's nothing I can do about that. But thank you for the suggestion. And yes, I read the story. And you can find the story on Facebook or on BBC if you're interested in hearing it. Thanks Lisa.
Tom says: I'm a licensed child therapist from Germany who works primarily with traumatized adolescents. I discovered your podcast two days ago when I was feeling overwhelmed by one of my dissociative patients. So I just typed in “dissociative” into my podcast app and stumbled upon your episode with the Adaption System from Germany. I really enjoyed the episode and will definitely listen to more episodes. I was familiar with DID and OSDD through my EMDR training. That's a lot of initials you guys. If someone just now tuning in for the first time, they're like, “Wait, what?” that was a lot of initials. But I didn't pay too much attention to it because it's not really a common topic in the German therapists world. So I was listening with an open mouth and goosebumps, saying to myself, “How could I have not paid more attention to this before?” But it's not too late, and I'm diving in again and ordered the book. Do you think there's any chance I could connect with the Adaption System to discuss OSDD and to approve a situation with therapeutic care here in Germany? I totally get if they want to stay anonymous, but asking us for free, as we say in Germany. So keep up the good work. And thanks for the connection. Hey, good job Tom. I appreciate you reaching out. I will totally forward your email to them and let them decide if they want to respond or not. But this is one of the reasons that I love, love, love the podcast. That people all over the world are getting connected, and we're improving care in country after country after country for people with dissociative issues. Thank you so much for listening and for writing in. And I hope you and the Adaption System are able to connect as colleagues and be able to improve care for our listeners in Germany. Good job, Germany. Sehr gut. [Laughter]
Chris says: Sasha, I just want to start off by thanking you for doing the podcast. I came across it a few weeks ago, and it's really helped us all out. It helps myself feel less alone. And I say “myself” because when we refer to “me” it gets confusing because that's the name of one of our parts. Oh, that's funny. That is Trixie. We have been diagnosed with a dissociative disorder, DID not being ruled out at this time. Our therapist doesn't like labels, but it really doesn't matter to us. It has been great getting to listen to your podcast. There has been so many things we can relate to. It really has helped me feel less isolated. I truly understand what you mean about not having or trusting friends. Our therapist is great. We have been with her for seven years, but only in the last two has everyone in the system started coming forward. The body just turned 44 last week. There were some pretty life-changing events going on from what I understand. And I've managed to get us back to work at a part-time job. And then one of her parts, I don't want to say the name, but one of her parts is a licensed social worker. She has a hard time dealing with the fact that she can't work like she used to. We are working on co-consciousness now. It's not going well. We had an incident last week where this other part and I were fighting, and while we were arguing a new part a child came forward. We ended up being transported to the ER. She was there for several hours until the daughter got to the hospital and then the other one fronted again. It wasn't until the next morning that I came back. And it's been a rough week. Typically I'm forward at work every day. We have check-ins daily with everyone in our system, and try to take time for everyone so no one gets upset and pushes through. This hasn't happened in a long while. I'm sorry I'm rambling, but I've been wanting to email for a long time and I've never gotten the nerve. I still think I'm crazy most days with everyone in my head. Reaching out to someone else who might actually understand how it really does feel in here is good, I think, but it's scary. Thank you for the podcast. I'm still trying to get caught up to the current listening, as I'm about halfway through. It is helped so much, Chris. Aw, thank you Chris for writing in and for sharing. I'm so glad you found it and then it's been helpful.
Donna says, so this is another friend Donnas, so now there's two Julies and two Donnas at least: Hey there. I wanted to mention, first of all, that I'm still thinking about the Women's Conference podcast and how terribly difficult of the week was leading up to that, and how terribly heavy that must have been to lose a friendship. Of course, I can relate, so it hits home. I find it very inspiring how you were finding friends, able to friend people, and be open with at least some. What a gift in itself. I was listening to the podcast from the adaption system from Germany, and she referenced your podcast about lighting in regards to internal communication and signaling when you need help. Can you tell me which podcast that was? And I've never heard of the word—I can't say that word—as she explained, and she does not have internal communication so she uses as a co-host. I can relate to not having communication. I'm very much appreciated this episode, as well as I do so many of them. Thank you very much for all you do. I actually don't know what episode that was. It might have been like Episode 18, or eight, or something about internal worlds, or it could have been one of the ones like Group Lessons. One of those, I think. It might have been where we talked about the lighting system that we used internally, which we actually got the idea from a movie, The Quiet Place. So um, I don't know. I don't know how to answer that. That's the best I could tell you. Maybe try one of those early episodes. But I think it's eight or 18, either Internal Worlds or Group Lessons, because it happened when we were in that group with the Crisses. So you could also look on the Crisses page for more information.
Barbara shares: I just listened to your Nachos podcast. Oh my heart. I identified with this one because as hard as it is to identify with the smaller ones within me, I just wanted to reach out and hug him within you. I like nachos too, barbecue chicken ones especially. [Laughter] If you get a chance and haven't made them before, it's a great treat for children, and the best thing you can do is hide nutrition in them. That's so funny. That's so funny. Also, since my kids are grown, the external ones, I have a dog Sophie who is very precious to me, and a couple of littles. She softens us tremendously. I have to say that though she isn't a real dog. She is a puny one, a miniature Schnauzer. I laughed when I heard that. Can you let him know that I've cried too when the Chiefs aren't on. By-week is awful. Sometimes my sister's able to get Chiefs tickets at Arrowhead given to her and I believe we live somewhat close to this region. So if you would ever want that part of you to experience a game at Arrowhead and you haven't already, you and your husband should go if it isn't too triggering. It's very loud and rowdy there. And he typically gives me two, and I would love to forward them to you and your husband if you're interested and if she gets some. I don't even know if that part of you is a Chiefs fan. As always, thank you for not only shining a light, but for having it burn brightly. Much respect always. Oh, that's so kind. You're right. We totally cannot handle a pro ball game right now. [Laughter] But that's super sweet of you to offer. And then it's very kind of you to reach out to him and reassure him. That was a pretty brutal week. It's true. It's true. Thank you so much for caring.
Lisa also wrote in about the Nacho podcast. It was so heartbreaking, that podcast, you guys, that episode. I want you all to have a dog so badly, but obviously that's not possible to do on the outside with all the other responsibilities you have because pets are a lot of work. But having a dog may be just what JohnMark needs on the inside. Maybe the therapist could help him get a dog just on the inside like she helped with getting all the lights. I'm glad you updated us listeners and letting us know y'all are good. Keep up the great job on all fronts. And thank you for sharing your life with us. Oh, Lisa, you're so attentive and kind. You're always so thoughtful. Thanks for writing in again.
Kim says. Oh Kim, I love you. Hi Kim. Kim says: I sure hope JohnMark feels better soon. I just listened to his podcast and he sounds so distressed. It was so bad. Your other podcast was so full. Cheesy peesy. I hope kids have a better week adjusting, and pat yourselves on the back for handling it also well. Congratulations for making it through and helping your children do the same. Oh my goodness. We're trying so hard, you guys. It's so hard. [Laughter] But we're trying we're trying.
Kelly says: I want this message to go to the part that was so sad. I couldn't tell if that was JohnMark or a different part, because JohnMark seems to be a fairly happy child. But regardless, I think you should get a Yellow Dog and name him Nacho. [Laughter] That's amazing. And if you can't, I will get you in nice and soft squishy build-a-bear dog and name it Nacho and send it to you. Oh, Kelly. That's so kind. That's so true. We're gonna have to figure something out, huh? That was intense. That was so hard. Everyone's been so supportive. That week was just difficult.
Suzanne says: I get the God thing. Our healing is very parallel and I'm grateful for your honesty. I'm sorry you have had friends hurt you because you needed to be a mom and deal with Africa and your own healing. It's lonely. I'm not local, but you're welcome to email me and maybe sometime I can tell you some of my story without trauma dumping. Thank you for that gift by the way. You're welcome.
And Lisa says: One more time remember: You are brave You are strong. You are good. You are worthy. You are loved. You are doing it. And you are not alone. And NTIS. That is exactly the kind of message we needed. Thank you.
Another Donna says: Hello Sasha and Emma and everyone. I have so much to say, and I don't even know if this is the right spot to say it in. But I also wanted to reply for so long and all of the replies seem intelligent and well spoken. It seems intimidating. Everyone is really smart and clever and kind, right? The emails we get, oh my goodness, they're so fantastic. Firstly, I want to say my most sincere thank you for the time and effort and energy that it takes to do the podcast, for the endurance and patience through all of the tornadoes and power outages, snowstorms and the lost podcast. Yet there's such perseverance to continue. I've appreciated each and every one, and I look forward to each and every one. Sometimes I swear you're talking right to me. I know it has been said before, but the podcast called I'm Okay was really so helpful. It was almost a pillow to fall on. It really was a pillow called hope. I had told my therapist about the podcast and I heard myself say in a shaky voice, the word “hope,” and even I was surprised. Oh, that makes me cry. That's so precious. I wanted to inquire about the support groups that you talk about on Facebook. I'm on many—something—support groups that I see you are on, and I've liked many pages and wondering if that's what you're referring to. Probably. If you're on dissociative support groups online, like on Facebook, you can just search dissociative identity disorder and see what groups pop up, and then sort of learn the flavor of them after you introduce yourself and see which one do you feel safe and comfortable in?
Another question is: Have you heard of, or what is your opinion on, or have you had a guest speaker about IFS, Internal Family Systems therapy by Richard Schwartz, in relation to DID? Actually, yes, we have that book and the workbook. And honestly, the problem is that we are not smart enough. It feels really complicated and weighty, and a lot to wade through. And like there's so many conversations on the page, and we already have conversations in our head. And so it's like a lot to sort through. And so we have not tackled it yet and keep avoiding it. I don't know if that means that it's not good, or if it means it's so good that we're just not ready for it. So we'll see if that's where we go after this other workbook. But we've not been able to do it yet. And we have not asked him for an interview. But that is a great idea. I know people talk about it a lot. And so it definitely would be something to explore. So if anyone knows Dr. Richard Schwartz, I would be glad to interview him on the podcast. And otherwise I will see if I can find an email or a connection or something to get in touch with him, because I noticed a popular thing and we totally have the books. We just have not been able to do it yet. I could not figure it out at the beginning. But we know so much more now. Maybe it would be more possible. But I know a lot of people do it and a lot of people love it. So it sounds good. Good stuff. Good stuff. Thank you so much for your time. I enjoy all of you so much. Take care, Donna and company. Thanks, Donna.
Suzanne says: I listened and I heard that your DID is being revealed in real life. I think that is very brave. Are you okay? I thought of saying my given name to you isn't as scary when I think of someone heard it here. That means here is safe for them too. Thank you for making this place safe. I'm so glad you keep sharing. It makes me braver. Oh my goodness, that's so powerful. Did you hear what she said? She said at first when she would email in she was scared to share her name because she didn't want to be discovered. But then she realized if someone were listening to this podcast, then they would also need that same kind of safety and hold them safe as well. And that's one thing that I love about this podcast. The way people are connecting with each other and holding that space sacred, and supporting one another, and helping, like, that is a powerful thing. Like, there's healing in that. There's attunement, and there is connection, and it opens up the possibility of relationships being safe. And that's a huge thing. It's a huge thing. We've been talking about that on podcasts that will be coming up, so you'll be hearing more about that. But I love this. Thank you so much for the email. And that makes me so so happy that you are feeling more safe.
Our friend Kim says: Hey, y'all. I listened to this episode a few times because it was a ton of info, but in a good way, and my brain was doing cartwheels. I love it. [Laughter] Amen, sister. Okay, number one. Is neuroplasticity a fancy word for rewiring the brain, or am I oversimplifying? Yes, that's pretty much what it means you've got it Kim. Number two. Is ACEs a roadmap to or away from dissociation, or is it some kind of tool used on all children to gauge whether they've experienced trauma? Okay, so the reason we've not talked about ACEs yet is because Jane Hart and I, my friend Jane, from Many Sides of Jane, we had an outline and a plan to talk about ACEs on a podcast together. But for a variety of reasons, mostly because of her children and my children, that has not happened yet. And so we either need to stop talking about ACEs, or I need to go ahead and do it by myself so that our listeners understand what we're talking about. [Laughter] But ACEs stands for adverse childhood experiences. And so it's a questionnaire that's very, very short. It's like a screening tool that says, like, what of these bad things have happened to you? And, and it's indicative of trauma. So it's way more in depth than that, but you're on the right track. That's what it means. And we will be talking about it more in the future, I promise, because it's absolutely significant and a huge thing in the literature now.
Number three. The terror of uncertainty. That was amazing and so very affirming for what I experienced with my love's. That terror causes extreme anxiety internally so it's hard to even see the plane of possibility no matter how much outsiders are trying to show or explaining to them. That part was so helpful. This is absolutely true. What you're saying Kim is spot on. Because when someone is afraid and not feeling safe, then it does not matter, all the logic you throw at them about how much you tell them it is safe, or how much you tell them is everything is okay. We just went through this in a friendship this summer where they're like, “We're safe. We're good people. And so why aren't you talking to us, or why are you struggling?” Well, we are struggling because of our own issues and our own issues in the past and all that we had going on. It was not about them. But if they take that personally, or don't understand why we're not being responsive to a relationship, or a friendship being different, it's just not going to work. Because the more you try to force it, the less safe it feels. And so it all kind of backfires the harder you try until everything escalates so big that it really isn't safe anymore. And then when they leave, then it hurts and is awful and they broke their promises just like everyone else. And so they get lumped together with that. And it all becomes trauma and it da da da da. See how like it escalates that fast. It escalates that fast. And it's that big. And it's that hard. And so it's heartbreaking. So way to stay present and way to try. And I'm really glad that was helpful. I'm sorry it's such a hard piece. It's really unfair that horrible people who did horrible things way back in the past have so much power in the present. And that's why we need healing. And that's why we need to do this hard work even though it's awful and difficult. Because they don't get to have power over us anymore, not even in our relationships. But it's a lot of work. And I'm so so so so sorry it's so hard.
That's all the emails I can share today, mostly because the kids are coming home from school. So I have to go and you know, be all parents like. And then when they're punks I can be like, “I'm sorry, you've got the wrong mom right now.” [Laughter] But thanks for listening, and thank you for your support and encouragement. I really, really, really appreciate you and I'm so glad that we all have each other. We're in this together.
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Thank you for listening. Your support really helps us feel less alone while we sort through all of this and learn together. Maybe it will help you in some ways too. You can connect with us on Patreon. And join us for free in our new online community by going to our website at www.systemspeak.org. If there's anything we've learned in the last four years of this podcast, it's that connection brings healing. We look forward to connecting with you.