Transcript: Episode 294
294. Email Friendship Questions
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
[Note: The contents of emails being read in this episode are in italics.]
So someone wrote in some questions. And I'm not going to say their name, but I'm going to read the questions and see what we can do with them. The first question is, well, it's several questions on the first one: When two people have parts like DID, is it safe to have them identify some of their parts to each other? Is that unhealthy? Is it better to just keep not identifying so that it doesn't bother the other person or confused them? On the other hand, another part is upset that people are contacting you without letting everyone inside know, and feels this jeopardizes the relationship we have. Okay, so this is an interesting question. And I think that it's a really important one. I think it's one that's going to be different for everyone, honestly. So I can't speak to everyone's experience.
But I think when there are two systems, two people with DID, who have lots of different parts, and those parts have names, and are altars or parts or folks or whatever words you want to use for your system or yourself, or yourselves, I think that that is up to each individual, whether that is the system or another system. And I think that sharing would be mutual. I mean, I just think you have to decide that for yourselves as a group when connecting with other people who also have systems or parts.
And I think it's a sensitive subject for us. Because I think in the past we would have said, if both people are really safe, and you have evidence of that safety, and both people are trying to be get well, whatever that means to them, and are functioning, and-. I don't know. I almost can't answer the question because it brings up so much anxiety. I think it really has to do with safety.
So let me use Peter as an example, again. Our friend, Peter. Because we always use him as an example. And then I record it. And then I text him and say, “Hey, I said this. Is that, okay? Tell me before it airs.” Like, I try to get his permission. But it comes to mind because he is an actual friend. He does not have DID, but he understands people with DID and works with people who have DID, right? And so it's not like a whole “we have to explain DID” to be friends with him. Which is a different thing altogether.
With Peter, in the beginning, I think that we were starting some of that. We were starting to open up and share some pieces of us, some names. We would sometimes identify ourselves when we reached out to him either by email, or texting or whatever, when we talked to him, we would sometimes say that. I think that because he has experience with us through the podcast and through our friendship, that there are times that he recognizes some of us whether he says that or not. But for us and our lived experience, what we went through two years ago really disrupted that. And the walls going up last year really disrupted that. And we stopped talking about that at all with anyone.
So even on the podcast, you noticed we stopped putting our names of who was talking or who was involved. Even though in the past we sometimes would do that. We would say, “so and so shares about this,” or “so and so talks about this,” or that “these three, like this one and this one and this one discuss this.” Because sometimes we would try to do in a co-conscious way, like as a practice thing. And in some ways that felt authentic and in some ways that felt helpful. And in some ways that was really good practice for us. And we made lots of progress with that. But the disruption of what happened two years ago, and the shutdown that's happened since then, we don't talk to anyone about our names right now or who is doing what. Not the husband. Not our therapist. Not our friends. Like, we just, we don't disclose. Like, we are, I. It really concerns me actually. And maybe this is like something therapy will help with as we re-engage in that process, if we stay in therapy and keep trusting the one that we found.
I feel like the violation, the harm, the-. I don't know the right word. Though, it, honestly, it's the depth of the pain of what happened hurt us so badly I don't know if we will ever talk to anyone about it again in that kind of open way about who we are or where people are, or give access to anyone ever again, give access to ourselves to anyone like that. But for us, that was like a trauma and a significant piece that happened. That had to do with losing safety. And so when you are in an ongoing trauma, you don't have safety, and it makes sense you can't do those things. And I think that if that had not happened to us, I think we would have been more open to it and it would have progressed more naturally. And so the fact that it's still not happening tells me that that piece is still stuck. And that we're still feeling like that that trauma is happening right now. And that that is still an ongoing vulnerability that we don't feel safe in that way.
And even as we work through that issue in therapy now, other things increase our vulnerability. Not just the podcast, but also letting the book out into the world. Obviously, that was a very vulnerable thing. The presentations that we did for ISSTD, that was a big deal. Both the webinar and the presentation. And those things actually turned out to be good things. I think they were done very respectfully, very safely. They were very well received. I don't feel like that put us into danger at all. But it was still increased vulnerability.
So, it's kind of like how they talk about how you have to manage stress, right? But even like positive holidays like Christmas, and not everyone has that experience so I want to be careful even talking about it. But like how there's good stress and bad stress, but it's still stress. I feel like this happened. Like, those things were very, very stressful. They took a lot of spoons, a lot of energy. They were terrifying to do. Even though they were very good, very right, we're proud of our hard work, and it went over very well, and we were received very well.
So I think you've actually hit on something for us, where-. It's also a piece like the earlier email talking about connection. Like, we can't. We are, we do not have the capacity to do that, to want that, for that to be helpful right now. Because we are in a place of putting walls up. And so it's the wrong time to be asking us to put walls down.
And so we have just tried to present as covert and as collectively as we can, both intentionally and without realizing it. Does that make sense? Like there are times where we have intentionally done that. And there are times we're not realizing we're doing that, but it's for the same purpose.
And I really think that it goes back to what's happened over the last two years. Like, if you think about it, where we were in a place. We were starting to have friends for the first time, we were starting to open up with them the first time, we were starting to introduce ourselves to them, and then even let them come to our house, which is a big deal. And they brought more people with them. And we tried to be transparent then of this is our situation and here's what's going on, and then hear nothing and there was no response to that. And it was like, “Okay, that was a mistake.” And then it made us start questioning everything. And then just looking backwards over how all of that unfolded, like we just felt foolish. Like, we put ourselves at risk. And it became a safety issue that nearly cost us our life.
And I think if we did not have the support that we did from like Peter, for example, or other friends and colleagues. And I don't want to just start listing names. Like, that's not appropriate. But like, I don't want to just saying the list of all my friends. But if I did not have the kind of support that we had, if we did not have the kind of support we had, I really don't think we would have made it out of last year alive. And I don't say that lightly. And I don't see that as a threat. We don't have any plans to like hurt ourselves or put ourselves in danger. I'm not talking about that. I am talking about the depth of relational wounds, and the depth of ruptures, and the impact of those wounds and ruptures. And when there is not repair, all the things we've talked about for over a year, for two years, you guys.
We put so much out trying to come out, trying to share where we were. And I feel like honestly, it all backfired. And that it kind of is one of those “it ruined everything” kind of moments. Which I know feel so dramatic and therapists always argue with. But they're not living the loss of all those things that were destroyed. And so it feels exponential. Like, it really did ruin everything. And so now, it goes back to that feeling of “I love you so much that I'm not going to expose you to myself because I don't want to put you at danger, or us at danger, by raising or risking vulnerability.”
So I feel like this is a really good question that they're asking, but I feel like it's a really terrible time for us to answer it. And now we have for the first time other friends with DID. And I think that unfolding of sharing who different altars are or names or building relationships in that way, I think maybe is something that would have naturally happened in that environment. And the only reason that it hasn't-. And some of my friends have tried, and some of them have shared with me, which I appreciate. And I think we noticed, and it's very meaningful to us because we know, we know, we know how much trust that takes. But I think because of what we've just been through over the last year or two years-.
Like, I keep forgetting even that that much time has passed because it feels like it just happened. But you guys, it's been over two years now. Like how is, like, time just keeps going. And the longer it goes, the more you realize, “oh, that actually wasn't at all what I thought, because why would I have been left alone in this if that was-.”
I, I really don't know that I can answer that more because we're working on these issues in therapy. And the wound is so raw and so deep that it doesn't feel even safe to approach it. And [short pause] like, I’m just hurt. I'm hurt. It's not even. It's not about grudges. It's not about dramas. It's not about being, it's not about bad behavior. It is literally about safety, and about attunement, and about the boundaries that are appropriate for caring for yourself.
And we've talked about even this piece in therapy lately. Where we were like, “Is this really, like, are we naughty or mean? Like, is this just drama that we're having to do this? And they’re like.” And she's like, “No. That's boundaries. You are caring for yourself. You are doing what you need to do to be alive.” And…
I don't know. I, it's hard for me to answer because this is such a raw place for us. What I'm trying to say is if that did not happen two years ago, I think that it very easily and more naturally would have unfolded. But because it did happen, and we can't change that it did happen, and because it is still happening because nothing has happened to repair it, and nothing has happened to bring healing, and so we have just been left in the pain of it. Which I think was worse than what even happened. And so because of that it is an ongoing trauma which leaves us in a lockdown kind of state. And as we heal from that in new ways, we will have to reassess when and where and how we open up to people in those ways.
But right now, we don't even talk about that with the husband. We don't talk about it. We don't do that with Peter, even though I think Peter would be fine if we did. And I think sometimes he knows. Like the husband knows. But it's not something we explicitly talk about the way we used to. And we don't talk internally or to each other the way we used to. And yes, it's causing problems. It is. But that's the impact of what happened.
And so I think, for us, it's a really difficult time to ask this question. I think talking about parts and names of parts, when a part feels safe and comfortable to do that, that that's their choice to make. If they have that choice. If they have that capacity to choose and want to choose that, they absolutely should have the right to do that when that's appropriate within the context of the system and what the system needs to be safe and functioning well. But it's not always safe. And not always because of the other person.
Like the person writing this email, I actually know them in real life. And they are a safe person. I would consider them a friend just like I consider Peter a friend. They are wonderful and good and kind. And I think that they would be someone we could totally come out to with names and different interactions and things. But we haven't. And we don't because of what happened the last two years. So I'm just being honest about that and how that changed things.
It really just changed thing. It changed things for the podcast. It changed things for our capacity to do therapy. It changed things for our capacity to build friendships. And how to heal that or bring that full circle, I really honestly don't know yet. We are still in the middle of that trauma.
Wow, that was, like, I feel like I rambled a lot. But it's, it's, it hurts. It makes me feel all raw and exposed. And it's difficult.
There are other people at the opposite end of the extreme who are overt all the time. They are out by name to everyone all the time. And if they've created a life for themselves where that is safe and possible to do more power to them, that's great. That's great. It is not a place that we are in. And I think it limits our access to the world, it causes problems, because not everyone is getting the friendships and the relationships that they were starting to build or that they want to build. But it became not an option for us when we lost safety.
I think that's really what it comes down to first is that you have to be safe first before that's possible. But when that's possible, I think it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's one of the things that we have grieved honestly, that we have not had opportunity for that, that that was shut down, that that was taken? I guess it kind of feels like a violation in that way. Or I feel like that's one of the impacts. And it has absolutely impacted people around us because we are much more hesitant to reach out, or to connect, or to share anything because it was not safe to do so. And I think that if we did not have the children to be responsible for and make sure that they were safe—not that it's their job to care for us—but that if we did not have that as like a grounding experience every day, I don't think we would even still be here in the country, pandemic or not. Like, if we were alive, we would have bolted a long time ago and just be done, like, and started over. And like if we didn't have that context of our family.
And there are days when I literally don't know if there will be another podcast like ever. Because, and I, and I don't mean that as a threat or a scare. I just mean that's how it feels. It feels like it is too much to try, too dangerous to try, and hurt too much when we did try. And it was a miserable failure. It's like we were literally told one day in therapy, “step towards, turn towards, try this and see how wonderful it is.” And it was a disaster for us. It was a disaster, and it was the most traumatic and painful thing. And it, nothing of what we were told is what happened. And nothing of what we were prepared for is what unfolded. And nothing of what we were promised followed through. And it nearly destroyed us. Like, I really don't know what to say.
And that's different for everybody. I know people who have had really good safe friendships. And that's wonderful for them. I know some of the same people in those friendships who are not safe for other people. And that's unfortunate. But that's great that it works for them. Where we are right now, is just still terrified. Like we're just maybe not ready. If we're going to say it in a healthy way that doesn't exclude it from ever happening, we're just not ready. But if you are ready, or if other people are ready, then sharing that, and they feel safe and healthy, then that's a wonderful thing.
Question two: What exactly is a friendship, and how do you believe it exists? Such as, if two people are kind to each other and are supporting each other in healthy ways, then it's a friendship. But also we identify with the parts involved in the Footsteps podcast. Oh, my goodness, you guys. That was really the moment we realized, “Oh, okay. This is what's happening. This is what's happened again.” And everything we thought was real and was our progress was not actually what we thought it was. And that was the moment like we really faced the pain of what we were about to go through. So the Footprints episode is very critically important to us, and is sacred territory. So I appreciate that someone else appreciates it.
Too many times we think we have finally found a good relationship and then realize that it never really existed. Yes, exactly. Exactly. To be honest, this is what some of us feel about therapist right now, but she doesn't get it. Yeah. It's trixie. And survivors, especially survivors of relational trauma, are very sensitive to ruptures. The challenge is that the ruptures are not always because of what we assume they are, or not always because what we know, and usually we don't actually have the other pieces to the puzzle because we're not the other person involved in the relationship. And so we can't like mind read, and we can't just guess what's going on, but we can feel what we feel and know what we know and see what we see, and figure out what do we do with that or not, and do we do anything about it at all. It's really, really hard.
For me as far as what friendship means, and whether it exists, [deep exhale] this is a such-. I feel like this is at target right in our wounds. And so I'm not sure how much to even talk about it outside of therapy. I feel like that's a place where we really are in therapy right now. Not friends with our therapists, but talking about relationships with other people and whether that's possible, and if we want them, and what does that look like, and those things. I feel like there are people in our lives who are the best friends to us that they are able to be. I feel like we are doing the best that we can do at learning and progressing and trying and attempting friendships in the ways that we can. Whether those things match up to being enough for what someone else needs or not, I don't know. And I think individuals have to decide that for themselves. And it's a heavy question sometimes. And I think that it goes back to not just availability, but what those needs are and the safety in meeting those needs.
So for example, we have learned that we need presence, but also responsiveness. Like, only connection is not enough. We also need people to be able to be responsive. And if we have to risk too much of ourselves, or give away pieces of ourselves, in order to get that response, then things are out of balance and it's not actually safe. And it took us a long time to figure that out. And we have stopped giving away pieces of ourselves because it's not health. That's toxic. Even if the other people are really good people, are amazing people, if it's not healthy for us in the process or the experience of it, it can still be toxic to us. And I think that is the other piece that was really hard to figure out. Because when you grow up in toxic environments, then you think people are good or bad, and you're devastated when good people turn out to be human. But it's also okay that you're human too. And that as a human you have needs and your needs may be different than what our needs are. But it's okay to ask them to be met. And it's okay to need them to be met. And it's okay to let go of those or that which do not meet your needs.
These are big questions. I feel like this is going to turn into its own podcast. Lately, you guys, you're asking such good questions, the emails are turning into like four-parters. Because you're really doing some good work.
Number three: When two people have DID do all the parts count in that relationship? It feels like the professionals seem to think that they have professional relationships. And it feels like the spiritual ones seem to feel like she has sisterhoods. But we fight to call it a systemhood because gender is an issue. Or some saying that anyone else can connect only by reading your books or the podcast, for example. But that doesn't seem fair. They say they are being healthy by keeping things structured, but it's not healthy. I think trusting whatever feels healthy or not, is a really big deal. And if you're trusting what doesn't feel healthy, then good for you. Because that takes a lot of gumption. That takes ovaries [Laughter] to learn how to do that and to trust that. So good for you really.
Just speaking from our own experience, we really feel like any relationship, whether that's a friendship, or someone you're dating, or someone that is just professional at work, I feel like all of your parts always matter because the primary relationship is amongst yourselves in your system. And that needs to matter most. And listening to each other needs to matter most. And if you are in relationships with people who allow you to be all of who you are, then that is one way of measuring safety and connection, both, and responsiveness as well. Because if they're not responsive, then some of those parts who struggle with feeling tended to, they're going to let you know. And you're going to feel that, and those feelings are going to be big, and that can get that can be really painful. But if you are listening to all your parts, and tending to all your parts, and meeting your needs in those ways, and caring for yourself in those ways, then the relationships that you have with external people—with outside people—the ones who let you do those things are the ones that will be healthy relationships. Does that make sense? I hope that answers the question.
Number four: DID and spirituality. So then they start talking about-. So they asked the question about how different parts agree on spiritual expression, or like rules for a system, or moral issues and things like that. And again, I think it goes back to communication and honoring all your parts.
And so, for example, we are 12 years sober. But that doesn't mean that everyone in our system is okay with not drinking. But we have agreed that our life is better since we stopped drinking. And so we can honor those bits of that grief that they are disappointed we can't just drink when life gets hard or whatever, right? Or that we don't get to go play all the time at the clubs or whatever. Like we can honor that, and attend to that grief, or those feelings, or what needs that was meeting for those parts, and still keep as a system the agreement that we've made not to do it. And when there are new parts who emerge that are not aware of things that have happened, then you work with them and tend to them with what they need, and what does that look like, and how can we meet their needs.
The same thing like when we got cochlear implants. Not everyone knew that we could hear. Not everyone knew what cochlear implants were. Not everyone realized that we had sound coming into our brain. And we had to work with them to teach them how to use the implants and what that means. And it takes some work, but having that experience of working together on something like that that's really critical, then can be generalized and applied to other areas where you struggle with collaboration or communication. And so it really helps you cooperate in other ways.
So I hope that answers some of those questions, even though I know there's a lot there. And I'm sorry some of them were difficult for us to respond to just because we don't have safety to respond to them right now. But I love the questions. I love that you're asking them. I would recommend writing about them in your journal or your notebook or whatever method you use to communicate with the others inside and hear what their thoughts are as well.
These friendship questions are ones that we get a lot, actually. Because when you have relational wounds, it's hard to do relationships. Because that's where the wound is, right. And so we actually get a lot of questions like these, and have asked some of our friends to come on the podcast. Not to, not to take advantage of them or to focus the friendship on the podcast, but because that's where it's working out. And it just hasn't happened. I mean, Peters been on several times. But it just hasn't happened to be able to have someone available and also able to have those kinds of conversations, just sort of explore it naturally and see where it comes. And, and we can't just pressure that because it's not something we want to exploit, either. So it takes a lot of time and energy and focused response to be able to have a conversation like that. But we'll see if we can find someone who is able and willing to do that in like an appropriate way. So we've asked several people and it's just not happened. It's not worked out. Or, or they changed their mind or something. And so we absolutely respect that because consent matters more than anything. But I think they're good questions. And I think we need to talk about it more.
So let's come back to some of them. And we'll see if we can get them answered better, and maybe even from some different perspectives. Thank you for writing in. Thank you always for your support of the podcast and for our progress and our healing efforts. And I know that we are grateful you are out there, and proud of your progress as well. And that the emails are right about how connection is healing, and that's where it happens. I'm sorry, that, but it's also true that that's sometimes what's hardest. It feels like a difficult place for leaving the podcast. But I also know it's possible because even though things have been so difficult, the husband is still here. So there's good evidence, as the therapist would say. Peter is still there. And so there's evidence. We have built other new friendships that are just beginning over the last year, which is huge. In the time we were most isolated, we came out with safe people. And maybe that's enough for us. Maybe that's okay. Maybe that's where we're at. But it's still a big deal and we can honor that. And we can be sensitive to notice when it goes well and when it goes right, even in little ways. Like Kim, for example, who's been a listener to the podcast from the very beginning and still writes in and cheers us on. That means so much. It is such a powerful thing. So thank you all, truly.
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