Transcript: Episode 140
140. Fish Tanks (2 of 2)
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
Interviewer: Bold Font
Interviewee: Standard Font
Okay, so, um, we could call it “switching topics.”
[Laughs]
Uh, so, we’ve talked a few times about EMDR, which I believe is eye movement dumpity dump, roopity roope.
[Laughs] Desensitization and reprocessing.
That’s what I said.
[Laughs] I would be howling right now, if the children were not asleep.
[Laughs]
That was amazing. [Laughs] That was amazing. Uh huh. How’s that working for you?
Clearly well. [Laughs] So, this is something that I’ve been doing with my therapist, and she has this little box, uh, like a small, like the size of a small MP3 player, and there are two cords that come out of it. One goes to headphones, and one goes to these two little plastic paddles that I hold in my hands - they’re about, maybe the size of a quarter. They’re pretty small.
See, when you say paddle, that’s a whole triggering image --
Oh, sorry.
-- That’s a whole different thing.
So, these little, uh, little flat plastic things. [Laughs]
I don’t know. I haven’t seen them.
They’re like -- to me they’re like dongles. [Laughs]
That does not sound any better. [Laughs]
I used to have a dongle for work, and they’re shaped kind of the same.
[Laughs]
Don’t you work with a dongle?
[Laughs] That’s going to be the name of the podcast right there.
I feel like you’re laughing at my dongle.
[Laughs] Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, oh my goodness, I should have stopped.
[Laughs]
You were doing fine. It was really good. [Laughs] Okay.
Um --
I don’t even know how to picture this. You’re going to have to try again.
So, there’s a little kind of oval shaped-ish plastic thing that I hold in each hand.
How big is it? It’s like the size of your thumb?
Yeah.
Or your whole hand?
I’d say about the size of my thumb, maybe smaller, and I just hold it in my hand.
Okay, like in your palm.
Yeah.
One in each hand, or --
One in each hand, yeah.
So, like, your hands are fisted with this thing in it?
Yeah.
Interesting.
And then when she turns on the device --
Oh, we could call it switching dongles.
Switching dongles, there you go.
[Laughs] Okay, sorry. [Laughs] There’s so many things happening in my brain right now.
You’re getting loopy.
Okay, sorry, go ahead.
I’ll just point out, you’re the one who wanted to continue.
It was way too sappy. We had to come full circle and clear things up.
We got all the sap out now.
[Laughs] Uh huh.
So…
Then what happens?
So, she turns on the little box and --
Like with a button?
Yeah, a little sliding switch.
Oh.
And it starts going “beep, beep, beep beep.”
Wait, you hear this, or see it?
I hear it, and it beeps in the right ear, then the left ear, and then the right ear, then the left ear.
So, like, earbuds or headphones?
Headphones, yeah.
So, it’s not something I could do.
Um, if we found the little piece that could connect to your processors to a headphone jack, you could, probably, I’d imagine. I guess I don’t actually know. Can you hear it in stereo with it, or just mono?
Well, how the flying flip am I supposed to know that? [Laugh] I don’t even know what that means.
Does your bluetooth connect to just one side, or to both sides?
Right now, these processors?
Yeah.
Just one.
Oh, okay. So, it may not work for you, with the sound part. But, also, the paddles vibrate at the same time that you hear the beep on the right side, the little disc you’re holding buzzes at the same time.
Only one of them or both of them?
On the same side that the beep is happening, there’s a little buzz in the thing that you’re --
That you feel vibrate in your hand?
Yes. The vibrating dongle.
Oh my goodness, you did not just say that. I can’t even. You’ve been a bachelor for too long. [Laughs]
Truth.
That was a really long trip. I missed you.
I missed you too.
Okay, sorry, go ahead. Your vibrating dongle.
Yeah, so I have a vibrating dongle in each hand.
[Laughs] Oh, make it stop. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
So, um, she’ll give me some sort of thing to think about, a question, or like exploring a memory, or if there’s a particular experience that has been triggering lately, or that I’ve been struggling with, she’ll ask me to think about that and see if there’s a particular feeling or memory or something that comes up. And, we’ll take like 30 seconds or something, as I just feel the alternating vibration, and the alternating sound. And, the sound and vibration is supposed to trigger some of the same parts of the brain as REM sleep.
We would do a better podcast if we would both sleep first. [Laughs]
I don’t know. I think it’s pretty entertaining as it is.
Okay, I’m sorry I interrupted.
[Laughs]
There’s like ten things happening at the same time in my head right now. So, okay.
It’s like a party in there.
[Sighs]
Is it a housewarming party?
For a treehouse!
Yeah.
Oh my goodness. Okay, get your glow worm on. [Laughs]
Um --
Wait, so you hear it.
Yes.
And, it vibrates.
At the same time.
At the same time, on the same side.
Yes. And, she could actually control -- can control the speed at which it happens.
What?!
And the volume at which it happens - the intensity of the vibration.
How does she know how to do that? Like, she went to school for that?
Also, there are two knobs on the box that she can turn.
But -- so, she works this little machine.
Yeah. I’m sure she’s had training. Yeah.
Well, she had to. You can’t just get that on ebay. [Laughs]
Eh, you probably could.
I said ebay, like it’s 1991. [Laughs]
Welcome to the twentieth century.
Oh my goodness. I’m just going to let you talk. I’m sorry. Go ahead.
Um, I mean that’s kind of how the processes work. Just, we discuss, and then I sort of close my eyes, and let my mind go as I have this alternating stimulus, and then she turns it off, and then we talk a little bit more. And then she turns it back on with another prompt.
Um, it’s been interesting. It’s -- like, it’s not…it feels like it just kind of opens things up a bit more in my head, like, allows the thoughts to connect a little bit more clearly, with a little bit more insight. And, for example, I was struggling with some writer’s block. I had a lot of anxiety as I was trying to write, and so we did a session where we talked about that, and the reasons why that was so hard for me. And, I learned through the experience that part of it was I was grieving the loss of a relationship with a longtime collaborator that I had had, and that I had never realized the extent at which I was mourning that loss.
And, so, we talked about that, and after I finished my session, I actually went right to the car and texted this collaborator to talk to him about how much I missed our collaboration, and how I understand that it’s not the time for us to be working together at the moment, but how much I appreciated him, and missed him. And, I’ve really been able to write since then. It made a big difference.
You’ve been pretty prolific.
Relatively speaking.
As much as we can contain the children --
Yeah, yeah.
-- so that you’re actually able to physically sit down and write.
Yeah.
That’s amazing. So, you feel like it was a positive thing for you.
Absolutely, without a doubt.
Did you think it was scary?
No.
It wasn’t scary?
No.
At all?
No. But also, I’m very comfortable with living inside my imagination, and even though I’ve had my own heartbreaks in my life, and traumas, I’m not really scared to go look at them. So, if I was less comfortable going inside of myself, then I can understand how it might be scary. But, um, for me, it was good.
Fascinating. We saw her today, the new therapies.
Mmhmm, yup. Did you do any EMDR?
No.
Some doopity doop, rupity roop.
[Laughs] No, we did not. We talked about the children. We didn’t even have to talk about us.
That’s not displacement. What’s that? Dis -- distraction? No, it’s a different word.
You’re asking the wrong one.
[Laughs]
You have to give someone else a glow worm. Not my glow worm.
It’s true, it’s not yours.
#NotMyGlowWorm
But, if you go looking in the kitchen, in the house, you will find a plate of chocolate dipped macaroons, and those are for you.
What?!
Yeah.
How’d you do that?
You got to get them before John Mark does, because --
Oh! [Laughs]
They will be gone if he finds them.
True story. [Laughs] That’s so funny.
We’ll have to delete out the name though, sorry about that.
[Laughs]
He’ll have to go find them before JM does, or they will be done.
I think John Mark’s been on the podcast and said his name.
Oh, did he? Okay.
We just did one the other day, actually, because here’s a thing -- do you want some gossip?
Oooh!
Here…we’re talking about so many things today. This may be like the epic episode --
Real Housewives of All Inside My Head.
[Laughs] So, there is like -- well, I’ll say Emma and Em --
Uh huh.
-- being co-conscious.
Ooh, yeah.
Which is the word the therapist taught us for, I think, how did she say it? Like, two being aware at the same time.
Wow.
Present at the same time, sometimes, which is a new thing. And, the therapist says it’s good, but it’s kind of weird.
Yeah, I could believe it.
And, so, that’s, I guess, progress and a good thing.
I feel like those two would be a really good team up, because they have complimentary skills. Like, each one has strengths that the other one lacks.
What do you mean? Like, give me an example.
Um, well, if we’re talking about the --
We are.
-- the people I’m thinking of. Like, one is very warm and nurturing, and the other has a lot more structure.
Uh huh, that’s right.
Like, that’s a really good complementary set of skills. And, neither one of them is mean-spirited, so they are both safe to be around each other.
Oh.
Right? So, there’s some people in there who are not going to co-conscious without a fight, right?
[Laughs] I can’t imagine.
They’re going to be fighting over the steering wheel.
[Laughs]
Um, but those two, I think have the potential to be amazing team players. And, I think they would be less lonely, knowing they could do that.
That’s fascinating. Huh…Well, I don’t even know what to say about it. There’s like a whole -- what is going -- like a whole ripple effect to it, I guess. But, here’s the thing that’s kind of crazy, that I have noticed, is that yeah, therapy, therapy, therapy, whatever, but I don’t [laughs] laugh at me. But also, really, I know what’s made that possible is the safety from you and the therapist and our friend.
Sure.
So, when you tell me that, about them being safe with each other, I know that they learned that from you guys.
Mmhmm.
And that’s part of like what I was trying to say earlier, about opening up that space and creating that safety. And, the tricksy thing becomes, like, what is -- like, for them, like, from Emma’s perspective -- what is safe enough that she doesn’t have to rely on dissociation as much --
Mmm.
-- versus what is happening at the same time is that it being that safe, then people inside -- people, Parts, whatever -- we come -- can come to the front more. And so, it feels like right when things should be getting better, things feel like they’re falling apart.
Mm.
And, that’s confusing when it feels like getting worse at the same time as it seems like we’re getting better.
So, each individual has less control over things, because there’s more shifting around. Is that it?
Maybe, kind of, I don’t know. It’s so new. We’ve done like five podcasts in a row, trying to figure out words to it and to explain it, and none of it has even made sense yet.
So, you’re saying there’s more changing happening?
Yeah, but I mean it’s two things happening at the same time. In one layer, there’s so much safety around us right now, which is ironic in war zones and stuff.
[Laughs]
But, that’s how true this whole thing about relationships and connections being safe. Like, think about it…we have the therapist, we have the new therapist, we have you, we have friends, we have professional colleagues even now, who know about DID, and are our friends. And, we’ve even talked about Parts with the kids in appropriate ways. Like, there’s all these layers of safety in a way we’ve never had before, and it’s so locked in, that in a way, she -- as a whole, as a system, us -- are more stable than we’ve ever been before.
Yeah.
And, in less need of dissociating.
Yeah.
And, I’m not sure if I’m using the words right. But, if we are dissociating as much, except that, at the same time, there are some who are so specific in their roles, like, Dr. E --
Mmhmm.
-- for work --
Yeah.
-- for example. That that feels like part of the stability.
Yeah.
So, does that help, or does that reinforce dissociating, and how do you fix that? I don’t know. It’s not really a question for right now. But, then at the same time, there’s the layer of things are now so safe, and we have so much support, that the really ugly crap is coming to the surface.
Mmm.
And, I don’t mean insiders, I mean content. But, because of that, just when she doesn’t have to rely on dissociating as much, also she has to be more present to feel all of that.
The hard stuff, yeah.
Yeah!
That makes sense.
Do you see what I’m trying to say? Because, it's been really hard…really hard to find words for, and we’ve been working for over a month to try and explain what’s happening.
Can I give you my -- reflect back to you what I am thinking as I hear this?
Yes.
So, do I remember that the therapist has talked about dissociation like lots of little drawers?
Uh huh.
So, if the inside of your mind is lots of little drawers, the inside of my mind is a fish tank.
Woah.
It doesn’t have any more or less in it than yours, it just flows around. All of the same experiences, like if I had DID, the contents would be exactly the same. It’s just whether it’s divided up or flowing around. So, thinking about what healing looks like with DID, it is not about removing or discarding drawers, it is not about --
[Gasps] Ohhh!
Winning over the other.
Wait, say that again. What?!
Healing from DID is not about discarding any drawers, because your content is the same. We do not have different amounts of content in our minds, it’s just organized differently. Right? You’re not any less of a person or any more of a person. And, the goal of healing is not to discard your drawers -- well, please don’t discard your drawers.
[Laughs]
And, it’s not that one drawer has to win over another. Healing would be gradually making the partitions between those drawers more transparent and permeable. Which means, on the good side, that there’s more fluid shifting, people have more access to each other, more access to the parts of life that they engage the most with. But, on the hard side, as those partitions become more transparent and more permeable, it means the things that you set them up to protect yourself from are no longer as well hidden.
Yes, that! Like the poem. That’s why we wrote the poem.
Yeah. So, as the walls become more transparent, you’re starting to see things through them.
Ugh! That’s really heavy.
Yeah.
I can’t even make a joke about it.
Heavy, but not bad.
Woah, what?
Just because something’s hard doesn’t mean it’s bad.
Like what you saying about saying “goodbye” doesn’t mean betrayal?
Yeah, yeah. The things that are scary in there, the things that feel unsafe, are all things in the past. Now time is safe. Even if you pull those ugly drawers open all the way, there is nothing in them that could hurt you now.
Wait, say that one more time.
Even if you pull those ugly drawers open all the way, there is nothing in them that could hurt you now, because that is not where you are. Those are memories.
Memory time.
Yeah. Now time is safe. And, what you were working on is coming to terms with memory time. But, memory time is already fixed, it is already contained, it has its bounds - the bounds of time and place, and it does not extend to now. Now time is safe.
So, we just have to look at it?
Yeah --
[Crosstalk]
And recognize it for what it is. And, you don’t have to be afraid of it. You did have to be afraid of it at the time, but you got through it. All of you worked together to get yourself through it. You are out the other side, but the way that your mind helped you get through it, by putting out these partitions -- just like with the kids, right, the things they learned when they were younger, and have made their lives harder now --
Right.
-- but it’s what helped them survive.
Right.
It’s what helped you survive, but it’s not helping you right now, because you don’t need to partition it off. It’s in the past, and so you’re learning how to change that protective barrier. You’re learning how to see it for what it is, and it will feel scary at first, because it has always been scary. But, just because it’s scary doesn’t mean you’re in danger.
Woah. Just because it’s scary doesn’t mean you’re in danger.
Yeah.
I feel like that’s a big piece I want to hold onto. Like, I need to write that in the circle notebook.
Okay.
Just because it’s scary doesn’t mean you’re in danger.
Yeah.
I don’t actually have the circle notebook.
I know. You gave it to the new therapist. That’s amazing. I was very proud of you.
But, she locked it up.
Yup, to keep it safe.
She was totally, legit protective in that way.
It’s like she knows what she’s doing or something.
Uh!
[Laughs]
We’re going to have to do this for real.
Yeah.
But first we have to go away again, so we’re off the hook.
[Laughs] Off of one hook, onto another hook.
It’s going to be a scary one, huh? We’re going to the Dominican Republic for a month.
Mmhmm.
I’ll miss you again.
Yes.
It’s hard, these things.
It is.
But, the Dominican Republic does not have child protection services, and so we’re going to go make that happen, by helping that happen…not making.
[Laughs]
That sounded really terrible.
I’m really proud of you. I tell everyone you’re a superhero.
Aww. We’re a hot mess, that’s what we are.
That could be your superhero name.
[Laughs] Aw, fish tanks. We just have to look. We just have to learn to look. Oh! Like, that’s where the not dissociating comes in, like learning to tolerate it.
Yeah.
Oh my goodness, I feel like something just clicked in my brain.
Oh, good!
Like, I literally, physically felt it click in my brain. I know that’s not at all possible, but that is seriously the sensation I just had. We have to be able to tolerate the looking.
Yeah.
Tolerate the looking.
It’s only by looking --
It’s not memory time, it’s now. Oh my goodness.
Only by looking will you understand what it really is.
You blew my brains out again.
I’ll get the cleanup rag.
[Laughs] Thank you for talking to me.
I love talking to you.
That was a good podcast date.
Oh, well, I enjoy.
I love you.
I love you too.
Aww. Anything else?
Um, in your refrigerator, in your head, there’s enough eggnog for everybody.
[Laughs] That’s awesome. You are the best one.
I love you.
I love you too.
[Break]
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