Transcript: Episode 41
41. Friendship Mail
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
Hi! So, it’s Sunday morning and we are not at home. The snow and ice has come again, like still. Like you guys, I don’t mean to be a big, old baby about this, but [laughs] I am being a big, old baby about this. Like when we lived here before, I mean like growing up in Oklahoma, they don’t have winter. [Laughs] I mean it gets cold. Like some days are colder than others and Oklahoma always has a terrible wind and that’s almost colder than anything else, and every once in a while there’ll be some freak storm like maybe every five or ten years. And on rare occasions that it does snow, it’s like a light dusting that’s gone by afternoon, okay? So you need to understand that this is part of the weather drama for us is that our winters that we have known our whole life mostly, I mean not entirely, well not like I have an inventory of winter experiences, but my adult life that I can remember did not have winter in it. [Laughs] Not like for real.
One time there was a storm we had snow for maybe two or three days and one time there was a storm where there was ice for a couple weeks, but [laughs] this whole thing of where we live now in Kansas City where this vortex or whatever it’s called has like drowned us in ice and snow since October you guys. We can’t even almost get through the yard. Like now, when we walk in our yard, we are walking on top of the snow and ice because there’s so many layers of snow and ice packed down. It’s crazy. The only reason we can get our cars in and out of the driveway is because we’ve kept shoveling it. Like here’s our workout for the day, except now it’s February. So now I’m like, “Kids! Go get the shovels and shovel our driveway for us!” [Laughs] Because it does not go away. It’s crazy.
Winter - that’s a thing apparently in the northern lands, like actual like Narnia level winter. [Laughs] The ice queen is out and about and I don’t think it’s me, but for some reason like global warming whatever, something...I don’t know. Up north they have legit winters and like everything shuts down long enough for the snow plows to get through and then everything just opens back up. [Laughs] Here everything shuts down if maybe it will snow tomorrow. [Laughs] But in Kansas City they’re like oh no, for 12 hours, everyone is banned from the roads and then you have to go to work and school and return to your life even though we have lost five trucks off the roads in the last whatever days. It’s insane.
So anyway, because we go to therapy four hours away, where we go to therapy is south of us and so if we can south of the vortex or whatever, Grandma Nina, is like causing all the ice and snow, if we can get south of it, then it gets actually gorgeous. So like yesterday, we left home...well okay, so the roads were supposed to be terrible today and they were actually going to….they actually shut down the roads. You can not drive on them. Which means, if they say they’re going to do that then that’s your warning. And this is like a cultural thing. I didn’t even know that weather could be cultural, but it’s completely different up there. Like I never, ever in my life have watched the weather or used the weather apps on my phone, like ever. Because in Oklahoma, the only thing we have to deal with are tornadoes and when you grow up in Oklahoma, then that doesn’t even matter. [Laughs] You just go outside and you watch the tornado come and then you go inside and then come back out and watch what the tornado did. We’re not even afraid of tornadoes anymore.
So how’s that for some PTSD. We actually could tell some seriously cool tornado stories, but that’s not what we’re talking about right now. What we’re talking about is winter. And so for the first time of my life, we are actually having to be present enough in time to look at the weather apps and pay attention to what’s actually happening with the weather, because if we don’t we get stuck. And so when winter first started, we did not look at the weather or the apps and it’d snow and we thought, oh, that’s okay, because it will be gone by afternoon. No, false. In Kansas, when the snow falls, the snow stays and it does not go away. And so we missed weeks and weeks and weeks of therapy, because we kept getting caught in the snow and the ice and could not get down.
So, as many of you know who have struggled to find a therapist or are in between therapists, because it’s really hard to find a good one, much less one worth investing in who will also invest in you, I know, I know, I know how hard that is. So, I at all do not mean any disrespect to those of you in that season because we have been there and it’s awful. But now we have like a legit, real therapist who is amazing and helping and the scary thing is, invested in that means that when we don’t get to see her, we completely fall apart. It’s bad. It’s really bad. Like threat level midnight bad. [Laughs] It’s bad.
Okay so we’re trying to function. We’ve made a lot of progress. We’ve come a long way either in my imagination or she’s just really good at coaching me into thinking that. But we can’t miss therapy, you guys. For one thing, we just don’t function well when we don’t get to see her, because she’s magical. [Laughs] And so we cannot not see her. It is the best thing that’s happened to us in years and years and years and decades...decades, our entire life, like seriously. I’m so grateful. A gift from God and I mean that most respectfully in the Molly context like she just talked about, not dissing Molly. But in a way, seriously, so good for us.
But the other thing is is that therapy stretches out and like if we want to be well and functioning and heal and be better, therapy takes forever. And so anytime we miss a session, then it’s like that’s just more time tacked onto the end of it, like skipping some kind of loan payment or something. But the other thing is when you’re working on therapy, like legit hard, then it makes it harder to function. So I’m not saying we need our therapist, like we’re so needy that we can’t even function, except that is what I’m saying, but we function just fine for a long time without the therapist. It’s not that. It’s that because we’re doing this work and engaged with her, having a break between sessions to finish processing things or to keep working on things or to practice working on things, like that’s good pacing, even though sometimes even that feels too hard or too long, right? But to miss sessions, then it’s like it goes too far and it’s like you fall into this abyss where you now...like there’s too much processing and you can’t hold onto now time and it gets way scary way fast. Does that make sense?
So because of that, now we have to watch the weather apps, because we can’t miss therapy. Oh my goodness! We cannot miss therapy. We either need to be in therapy or not in therapy. And finally, finally, finally we are actually in legit therapy and trying. I don’t know if we’re doing it right or not. Like seriously, I have no idea. Like how do you know if you’re doing therapy right? But we’re feeling better and making progress.
So that’s actually something she asked last week about if therapy is helping and how we know it. And so it’s something I’ve been thinking about. And I can think of things like we’re not a walking panic attack all the time and we sleep more. Like we still have nightmares, but not all the time, every night. When we do have them they’re worse though. How’s that a thing? Most of the time we’re nicer to the children [laughs] - inside and out, I guess. We’re rescuing people inside, right? Does that count? We’re learning how to communicate and work together. And Molly said this weekend, out loud, in front of everybody, that we have been abused when we were little. Like no details, obviously, but that’s a big deal for us to disclose that and also, I wasn’t sure I wanted that or if she was going to do it, I’m not sure she should have said it on the podcast. I don’t know. It feels like crossing streams a little bit. You know like in Star Wars with their things or Ghost Busters or something. Like you shouldn’t cross streams. So that feels a little less safe. If I’m the one in charge of the podcast and I’m supposed to be keeping us safe, then people can’t be talking about so much information that we just disclose everything to the whole world. I don’t know. I’m going to bring that up in a meeting.
But anyway, we can’t miss therapy. Yesterday they said on the weather that the snow and ice was coming again and so they said it was going to start at midnight, but it was going to stay above freezing. So we thought about leaving early just in case. But we’re like, no, because it’s like science accurate. I remember people saying things a long time ago about how the weathermen never know what they’re talking about. Now the weathermen are like, “It’s going to snow at 2:07 pm and it will be 4.5 inches.” And that’s right. It’s creepy, right? And so they’ve been really accurate like however science is in weather now that they can actually know these things. It works. And so they said it’s going to start snowing at midnight, but won’t really be too much until afternoon today or whatever. Except then, they sent out an alert on our phones, like tornadoes in Oklahoma, except in Kansas it’s about snow. And it said…”Oh no, no. Actually the snow is going to start now.” And I looked out the window and three seconds...one, two, three....BAM! Seriously, it was like a countdown. Three, two, one and snow.
And it started. And the problem was yesterday it rained all day, because for the first time it was above freezing and so this whole layer of rain just poured all over the snow and ice and then it started freezing and we were like, “Oh no, you didn’t.” Because we have therapy on Monday. So if it’s going to ice on Sunday, I can’t get to therapy on Monday. Which meant, we had to leave on Saturday at the last minute with like no notice, throw things in a bag. We don’t even have time to fight over who’s going to wear what to therapy and whatever. And so at the last minute like at 8:00 o’clock at night seriously, we threw stuff in a bag and got in the car. We had to bring one of our sons with us, because we have a son with autism, but our youngest son is also on the spectrum. And he has his official getting his diagnosis results, whatever that’s all about, on Monday, at the doctor. So we have to bring him too.
So we had to drive our son and he’s the talking one. You think I talk a lot? Oh my goodness, this child. I, no kidding, drove to the edge of town and was ready to get on the interstate, and then turned around and called the husband and was like oh no, for the love of all that is holy, get the child an iPad. I don’t even care about screen time. I have to drive four hours in the car with this child. I mean, oh. We never, ever...our kids do not have phones. They have an iPad, but I mean like the family has an iPad. We rarely, rarely use it.
So for example, we had to bring the triplets with us to therapy when the husband came, and why they were with us is a whole different story. But we wanted to take them to this cool playground. They had earned that. But that meant they had to go with us to the appointment, but obviously, we cannot talk about therapy things in front of the children. That’s just not appropriate. And so during our appointment while the husband was with us, they got to watch a movie on the iPad for that hour and a half. It never happens. So of course they were like glued to it, because they were so excited to have screen time, because we don’t let them have screen time. But let me tell you, when you have this particular child with you, by yourself, for four hours in the car, you will let him have screen time. Oh my goodness. It was terrible. I mean, it was delightful and wonderful one on one time. No, it was terrible. I’m just saying. [Laughing] I maybe fail parented, so we spent this morning having a lovely and engaging time together. Ugh. But, it’s hard.
So we’re here early - a whole like 36 hours early to therapy. Who does that? [Laughs] Except that, obviously it’s not time for therapy. So, we are at the husband’s parents house, which is in the same town where our post office box is and we have mail that we are going to share with you. But let me back up first. This means we are staying with the in-laws, which is probably something I’m not allowed to talk about on the podcast. [Laughs] So, I’ll skip that. But part of staying with the in-laws means that when we went to church with them this morning, there are different triggers there. But also, we used to live here, like a long time ago. Well, not a long time ago, I mean like as an adult. I mean we used to live here after we were married. Okay, and so like everyone here knows us because of the husband and his parents. Which means everyone is so excited, like you’re here in town [inaudible], because she told everybody. We can’t even hide. Like what I would like to do is here child, go have one on one time with your grandparents while there aren’t five siblings to fight over them. Enjoy and then go back to the back room and shut the door and hide in the closet and draw stuff. That would be my ideal 36 hours until therapy. [Laughs]
But no, she told everyone we were here so people keep coming to see us. People keep calling to see if we want to go out. No, guys. You don’t understand. We don’t have friends. Now, I’m saying this and that’s going to hurt my friend Julie’s feelings, my friend Megan’s feelings. No, no, no. I’m not trying to hurt anybody’s feelings. I’m saying [inaudible background noise] ugh, it’s hard to have friends. That’s what I’m saying. We are not good at being a friend. Part of that is trauma, part of that is attachment, and part of it is we’re just not that extroverted. And I know that sounds crazy, because it’s a podcast where there is self-disclosure spewing out into the universe. But, you know what? I’m doing that from my car and people don’t have to talk to me while I do it. [Laughs]
Because people...it’s people. It’s just hard for us for a thousand reasons it’s hard. And it’s very difficult when you add DID into the mix, obviously. And so making friends and having friends is really, really hard. That said, I kind of would like friends. [Laughs] I mean, who doesn’t want to have friends? I mean, it’s a philosophical thing though. I would like to have a friend thinking oh, I have a friend. Meaning a safe person in the world who would not be super intrusive, but could be like all Anneof Green Gables, like let me flash my light and you know that I’m having conversation. Or we could go meet in the meadow and make up stories or laugh or share or have some tea that actually has alcohol. No, I’m just kidding. Remember when that happens in Anne of Green Gables with the cordial? That’s so funny. Old school.
Okay, anyway, to have a safe person that you could talk to or share. Or maybe, maybe someday I could even be a decent person to someone else, instead of just like all needy or avoidant. There’s no middle ground or I push you away and I don’t mean to. It’s just really hard and I don’t know how to regulate all that. This is why we’re in therapy, because of stuff like this, right? So, I don’t need people showing up at my house. I don’t need people trying to call me. Also, we’re deaf and you’ve known that for years. So stop trying to call me. What’s wrong with you? I don’t need people who want to text me all the time, because they don’t know how to talk in real life. Or people who just text me, because they’re bored. Social interaction through technology can be a beneficial thing in its context or over distance or for quick, reassuring messages, but that is not a relationship, people. [Laughs] But also if I don’t let you come over to my house and I don’t leave my house to talk to you, I don’t know how we’re supposed to have a relationship. So, I get it’s on me too.[Laughs] It’s my fault too. We’re terrible at this.
But also, mostly, it’s about safety and connection. Who is safe enough to connect with and how do you know? That may be the most basic level of any trauma or trust issue as anything. Because no matter what kind of trauma you’ve had or what happened to you or what ways you were neglected or whatever, it all comes down to a safety violation - a violation of safety. So, if you don’t feel safe, it’s really hard to trust. And if you haven’t been in the safe place or in safe relationships, it’s really hard to trust again. So opening up and risking that is a big deal and terrifying and sometimes stupid. That’s what it feels like. Like what if this is the wrong person? Or this is the one that hurts me again. Or why would I put myself through that again? Or we live in all these small towns in Oklahoma. Then not only do you get screwed over, but it’s all like completely public and it’s just embarrassing. Ugh. Small towns. You got to have a love, hate relationship with small towns.I would like to live in the country, outside of a small town. So that I could go do the small town cool things, but also be like the weird hermit out in the country. [Laughs] Ugh.
The other piece of it is that it was our birthday this week and so people tried extra hard, except they didn’t...like who’s trying because they really care about you? Who’s trying just because it showed up on their Facebook feed? And who...like, I don’t know. I’m not very gracious or grateful. [Laughs] Ugh. I don’t want to be a terrible person. I just...I don’t want to connect with people who aren’t authentic or aren’t sincere. And I don’t mean to test that or be so hard on the people who are trying, but it’s a really scary thing and I don’t know how to get past it. Except, you know, therapy.
So in therapy, even opening up is a hard thing. I myself just got busted and I’ve been watching therapy since like November maybe, but never talked to her directly. I don’t mean I can see everything and I don’t mean I can hear everything, but I can catch some pieces and I can catch some things. And I have to clarify something about this, because my friend Julie is all over me, because I said in a podcast when I was talking to her about me being a placeholder. I don’t know what she thought I meant by that, but I did not mean to disrespect myself by saying that. And I don’t mean that I’m a placeholder like, hello, I’m a new alter, my name is Sasha and I’m going to do a podcast now and that is all I’m allowed to do and I’m not important. I didn’t mean that in a disrespectful-to-myself kind of way. I meant if we are going to trust the therapist and the husband is going to know about DID, then we need space to be able to watch that happen and watch it play out and know that it’s okay. So, I don’t know how to explain how new alters happens and I don’t know how to explain what it’s like being a new alter and I don’t know why some new alters know nothing. Like Emma, when she married the husband. Or how some alters know some things, like me when I started the podcast. I don’t know how it works. I’m not the boss in here and I’m not the expert on DID. I just know us and when I said I was like a placeholder, what I meant was instead of running away, we’re going to stay here in place and just hold this space.
So, we go to therapy and I talk about it on the podcast. We talked with the husband about DID and I talk about it on the podcast. There are things we can write in the notebook and I can process it. How can I put it together so that therapy can really work? If you’re going to take a leap of faith and trust somebody, you have to have that board to step on. So you know like Indiana Jones where he has to go to get the Holy Grail to rescue his father and he gets to the part about the leap of faith and it looks like it’s just a big tavern and if he steps out off of that ledge, he’s going to fall. Except that, when he throws the rocks, you can see it’s an optical illusion and there’s actually that path that goes straight across. He just had to trust it that it was there.
My therapist is there. She is that ledge and I know that she is. I have made it that far and it’s starting to sink through in us as a system, but I’ve made it that far to believe that our therapist...like I can step out on her. We are trying to take that step and that leap of faith and it’s terrifying. She might even be...well no, here’s the thing. I’m going to stay with the Indiana Jones analogy, because this totally works. Here’s the thing. What I know...what I know so far, okay, is that the things the therapist has taught me are like the rocks. I can throw the rocks out and it helps me see the path is more visible and be less scared about stepping out. Does that make sense? If you know the movie, then you know what I’m talking about.
And I have made it even now, more recently, I think...and we’ve been with a therapist for like a year, okay...we’ve been with her long enough now...like I feel like we spent the whole year learning how to throw rocks. Like scatter the rocks out there on that ledge and...oh my goodness, I’m totally answering the question about how I know herapy is working. Ugh. This is like a breakthrough in my head. Like I felt it in my brain. I know your brain can’t feel, but mine does. I swear. Ugh. Ah! Ah! It’s happening faster than I can even tell you.
Okay, so we have spent an entire year in therapy throwing rocks out on the ledge you couldn’t see, to know that it was safe to go across. From memory time to get to the other side, which is now time. Oh my goodness, this analogy totally works. I hope I even get to see the therapist long enough on Monday to tell her all this. Ugh. Oh my goodness. My brain.
Okay, so if where you’re leaving is memory time and he’s trying to get across to the other side which is now time, the therapist, for the last year has spent a whole year giving me different rocks in my hand that I could hold, that I could touch, to know that it was real enough. But you have to throw them and let them fall out to be able to see the path, right? And what I’m saying different than just those skills, like coping skills or whatever, different than just that, I know that my therapist is also that ledge. She’s not going to let me fall into that cavern. It’s terrifying. It’s unpleasant. It’s scary. My body does not trust it because it sees the cavern, but my head and most of us, I mean everybody who’s been able to participate and everyone in their own way is seriously trying, okay? But most of us, we know we can even step out on that ledge. We...I think, you guys, I think have finally started the actual walk across. And our therapist is safe enough to hold us to get us across. She is safe enough to get us across. We can do it. I know that.
What I don’t know yet, only because it’s so new and really, we’re just not there yet, but the piece that I don’t know yet is if she will still be there with us when we get on the other side. And what I mean by that is, when we are starting to tell her things and when we are starting to process things and people inside are starting to tell their stories, in those moments, all we can see is cavern. And all we can see is we’re trying to go across, but what’s across from us is a dark cave, right? And so, ugh. So that is where it’s still scary is because our body only sees with the eyes and with the feelings and body memories or whatever that the cavern is so big and so deep and so scary and we’re pretty much going to die. But when I just look at the rocks that she gave us to hold and to throw out across the ledge, we can step out and we can start walking across. Does that make sense?
I have been very profound for myself this morning. [Laughs] Part of that though is that when you throw those rocks out and make the ledge easier to see where it is so you can step across, then it helps other people too. That’s how those people were able to follow him. I mean, in the movie those people were bad guys, but it doesn’t matter. The point is, it’s also how he found his way back. Which is what tells me the therapist will help us come full circle. That we can go into this, do what we need to do, and get back out and be better. Not only is she not...oh! This is it! This is the piece I was looking for! Not only is she not going to let us fall into the cavern, but she is going to pull us out to the other side, like all the way to the healing part on the other side. So, that’s the piece we need to hang on to is that going in does not mean we can not come back out. We are going to get back out. I don’t know how to spread that through the layers, so to speak. But I understand it for the first time. It just has come to me.
So that’s a helpful thing. And it’s also part of why we’re doing the podcast, because even though other people’s stories are different than ours, what we learn can help them the way what other people learned helped us. And so even though we don’t know everything and even though we’re just sharing crazy things like Indiana Jones analogies, which JohnMark will like, and I appreciate even if no one else gets it, they can find their own analogies, okay? But for me it works and it might work for someone else, and it’s so hard to find those rocks, those things to throw, not at people, hello. But at the ledge so you can see where to walk out to get there safely. That’s why we’re doing the podcast, because we want to help people so that it’s not as scary for them either. You know? Like almost being a friend. Maybe we could learn that in the process. [Laughs] Maybe in the process we can make a friend.
But here’s the beginnings of it. I want to share these with you. So one of the things that we love about the podcast is hearing back from other listeners, because it helps us...not only make new friends who understand about DID, but it helps us to have the courage to keep doing the podcast, because it is helping people. So I want to really thank the people who are listening and also those who have written in and sent their very kind letters of encouragement.
One of them is from Alisha who said, “Thank you so much for your podcast. I also have DID and love having a podcast I can relate to. I really enjoy the interviews.” And then she also told us about her therapist who is also a former president of ISSTD and so we’re totally going to talk to him. So, how cool is that? Not only did we make a new friend, but we also got to make a new connection. So that was kind of a big deal and pretty special. Thanks, Alisha!
We also got an email from someone whose initials were O.A. and all they said was, “Thanks.” And I want to make sure that I mention them, because I can tell just by the way the email came through that they were pretty dissociated when they wrote it and also that it took a lot of courage for them to just submit that. And so I want to thank them and make sure that they are acknowledged and know that we really appreciated their email.
We also got an email from Michelle, who said, “I just wanted to let you know that I am thankful my counselor told me about your podcast yesterday in our session. I’m a mother of three boys and married for 22 years and diagnosed with DID.” And then she shares some other things that I don’t want to read here, but that talk about some of the parallels we have and some of our experiences and so I’m so grateful to have gotten to connect with her. Someone who not just understands DID, but some of the similar things that we’ve been through that are some parallels between our families. So again, how amazing is that that we can strengthen and support each other when we are brave enough to open up a little bit. We can learn, like in therapy, how to do that safely and when it’s safe to do it and how it’s safe to do it and with whom, but it’s kind of a beautiful thing. Like I never thought we would be, even though I know we’re just starting, and maybe our therapist is rolling her eyes and going crazy being stuck with us all this time, but we’ve made it further in therapy than we have ever made it before, ever. And so all of that was because of that risk to try and trust, right?
We also got an email who said, “I just want to say my therapist gave me your podcast flyer and I love the way you explain everything. You have made me feel less alone.” Oh my goodness. You have touched my heart and I’m so grateful that you feel less alone and I’m so grateful you sent an email so we feel less alone too. Thank you!
Kim said, “Your podcast is awesome!” Yes! That’s a win, you guys. Kim said we’re awesome. That makes it legit. “All of you really help me on so many levels. My partner has DID and I’m just trying to figure it out day by day.” No kidding, Kim. Seriously, Kim, no kidding. [Laughs] I can’t imagine living on the outside of DID. So the fact that our therapist and the husband are still around just baffles me, completely baffles me. But I’m so grateful and good for you Kim for loving your partner with DID. She has a question. Kim says, “Why was Sasha so sure the therapist was going to fire y’all over the podcast since it’s such a positive thing?” Okay first of all, I love Kim, because she said “y’all.” I’m an Oklahoma girl and so it’s very important that she said “y’all.” That’s your in, okay? That’s the password. That’s the secret code. No, I’m just kidding.
So why was Sasha so sure the therapist was going to fire y’all over the podcast since it’s such a positive thing? So there’s two layers to your question - always layers, Kim. Always layers. One layer is that I didn’t know the podcast was a positive thing. I only knew the podcast was a risky thing. Does that make sense? So I did the podcast because the idea unfolded in a conversation with the husband, because we do a podcast for something else. And so we knew how to do it. We had the equipment to do it and it’s actually really good practice for ear training, because of our cochlear implants and so that’s how we got into it in the first place. And so trying to do it for DID and finding out what was the safety and the boundaries and then the level of communication that happened because we were talking about things out loud. For us, that was a powerful experience. And all these different things kind of unfolded to where it made the therapeutic work that we were doing, like exponential. And so we just kept going and then never meant it to be a secret. I just didn’t know people were actually going to listen to it. And it was risky because we were just putting it out there, which is always scary. Like we’re pretty private people, but through different things and because of work and because of our families story and different things, there are parts of our lives that are very, very public. And we have to be careful about self-disclosure so that it’s super intentional, but also limited. Does that make sense? And so the podcast just was a whole new level of scary, because of all of those things. And then at the same time we started the podcast we got reported to family services, which turned out to be a false report and it was completely dropped. And I know we keep bringing it up, but it’s because it was that scary. It was such a huge trigger for us and for our outside kids that it really just was terrifying. And so it felt like a consequence of opening up and saying these things out loud. It felt like that happened because of therapy and that happened because of the podcast and that happened because, because, because. None of that was true.
And the therapist is like, “What is the evidence that da, da, da?” The evidence is that it was completely unrelated. It was completely false. It was dropped and it’s not even actually an issue, but the experience was this is a cavern and we’re going to fall in. I didn’t know, like you’re saying it’s a positive thing, and I so appreciate that reminder and everyone’s emails, because it helps us remember that and to keep trying, because sometimes it just feels risky. It just feels like a cavern. It just feels like we’re not supposed to talk about any of this. And even in the mental health community, there’s such a backlash against YouTubers and against survivors talking to each other and survivors talking about some things...it can be done well and it can be done poorly, but it’s not there for some people in the mental health community to target everyone for those who have done it poorly. Just like it’s not fair for survivors to target all of the therapists just because there are a few bad ones out there. So, for us, it was such a new thing and we didn’t know how it was going to be received, either professionally or by survivors, that we didn’t know it was a positive thing. So, you Kim, are actually the first person who said this is a positive thing. So, way to go! Thanks Kim!
The other layer is about the therapist. I mean, not really about the therapist, because it’s our stuff. It’s not her stuff, but being so afraid we’re going to be fired over anything just goes back to friendship and trust like I’ve been talking about in this episode. There is so much fear that is not just fear, but in the past has been danger, like actual danger that it makes it scary to even try to participate in something like therapy or a relationship or even a friendship. But also, it feels like the cavern. So for people who grew up in healthy families or have not had bad dating relationships or something like that, friendships and relationships come a little biteasier. Like you already know that the board is here and this is the balance beam I walk across to the other side and everything is going to be great. People know those things. It’s like an assumption because they have attachment and they have trust. But when someone has been through trauma and even if that was as an adult, like a really bad dating relationship or a traumatic breakup or a traumatic betrayal of trust in some way when you’re dating someone, it doesn't just have to be childhood trauma. Anything that is a disruption to a relationship causes that kind of relational trauma and makes trust harder the next time. So when someone has a whole lifetime of those things, it makes trust a really hard thing. So we are still learning that the therapist is even going to keep us.
We adore her. There’s not even anything wrong in our relationship, because when there’s something that comes up either between her or us, we’re able to talk about it. That’s what keeps a relationship healthy, right? And so if she’s taking off spring break for example, because she has family, like a real life outside of us, okay? Which is normal and appropriate and healthy. She just says, “This is my week off for spring break.” The boundaries are clear and that’s part of what keeps us safe. Her taking spring break off is not like an attack on us. It has nothing to do with us. But at the same time because we have been through things in the past, then that week when we have to go two weeks without seeing her, instead of just one, I guarantee that by the end of the second week, we will be barely hanging on. And not because we’re not smart people or functioning people, but because we literally can’t hold...what is that called?
Doctor E says it’s called holding the transference of the relationship between people, like transference in a good way, not in a bad kind of transference. But like the energy between two people in a relationship, we can’t hold it that long. We don’t know how because no one ever has. So there are times the therapist, part of therapy is her holding that for us and there are other times we practice holding it for more and more and longer and longer times. But we are not good at it yet. So anything that feels like the cavern, feels risky and dangerous. And so the podcast feels like a cavern and it was risky for the therapist that we would lose her over it, not because our therapist has ever even one time said, “I hate when you do that. Please stop doing that.” She’s never said that about anything. [Laughs] Nothing. Nothing. And even when we make our lives harder than it has to be, she’s never shamed us or like quit on us or gotten irritated. She can call us out on stuff, like staying on topic or focusing or trying to stay present. I don’t even want to tell you the things she can call us out on. We cannot be sneaky in there. She is all about it. But she’s still there and she does care. I believe that. Or she’s really good at doing...what is it that you do when you make people think they care? I don't know. She’s really good at what she’s doing. She’s really good at being her and so it wasn’t that the therapist did something we thought she would fire us, it’s just that we’re still learning to trust that. We’re still learning how to walk across that board. I know that’s like a long version, but I hope that answers your question.
I also got an email from Diane and she said, “I just wanted to say ‘thank you’ and how much I admire you. Sometimes people come into your life and make a difference and you have done that. It is sometimes we don’t tell people that they make a positive difference and so I wanted to be sure and let you know.” How amazing is that? You guys, that’s like right there, Diane is learning legit how to have relationships, because she felt something and said it out loud. I’m learning about that. That, what she just did, was connection. When you feel something positive about someone, you need to say it out loud to that person. That is in a relationship thing.
So then she also talks about… I don’t want to read about all the private things, but she also talks about having DID and what that’s been like for her and how it’s been hard sometimes and that she has a husband of 42 years. Oh, shout out to Diane in the marriage department! That’s amazing. That is amazing!
You guys, I’m going to get on a soap box for a minute. People forget that marriage is just hard. People just want marriage to be easy and people break up and quit so easily and almost any relationship...I’m talking about safe ones, guys...I’m not talking about unsafe ones. But in safe relationships, you can get through almost anything if both of you will just do the work. Now, that doesn’t mean both of you are always doing the work and you can’t control if someone else does that work or not, but if you both do the work, you can get through anything. And so that’s amazing - 42 years! You just blew me away.
Anyway, her husband calls her his girl of many colors. Aww, that’s so sweet. So, she says, “I listen to your podcast over and over and sometimes they help me sleep.” [Laughs] That’s funny. I know which one makes you sleep. I know which ones are boring. No, I’m just kidding. “Just knowing that there is someone very like me helps and you sound kind.” Ugh. I’m not the kind one. I’m not the boring one either though, so that works out. And then she shares some more stuff about her history. Ugh. I don’t want to share their private things, but I so appreciate your email, Diane. It’s really special. “Thanks and I hope you don’t mind that I emailed you.” Not at all and I’m so glad you did. Oh and then she says, “Cheers!” Aww, cheers! Cheers! I love it. Cheers!
We lived in Australia, actually. This person is from Australia. We lived in Sydney for two years and it was amazing. It was beautiful and there was fresh food everywhere. They have a fruit market and a vegetable market and a meat market and a dairy market and there’s no Wal-Mart Supercenter where you get old food that’s already been processed for two years. It was so fresh. I never in my life...sorry France...never in my life [laughs]...okay, France still had the best cheese. Germany...ooh. Germany...I did a lot of drinking in Germany. [Laughs] And when I was in England, it was just wet all the time. It was raining the whole time I was there, every time I have been there and every time I have lived there. And so I only remember that the food was hot and warm and savory and what’s the word in English? It kept you going. It was filling, because you were going to go out in the rain and you needed to be warmed up and full. But in Sydney, to ride the fairy, and to eat the fresh food, oh my goodness. I loved Sydney so much. A shout out to Sydney. I mean, I’m not saying she lives in Sydney. She does not say where in Australia and I’m not trying to disclose where she lives. I’m saying I lived in Sydney and I want to send out a shoutout to Australia because it was gorgeous.
Here’s another email that says, “Every one I’ve listened to has made me laugh, cry, and helped me understand myself. Actually the Three Emma’s episode provided so much clarity for us. I never even thought about how that could happen, but I think it’s totally true for us.” Oh, that’s amazing! I honestly have not listened to that episode. I don’t actually re-listen to the episodes. I help edit most of them, not all of them, but then I don’t go back and re-listen to them because I learn while I’m editing. But I know that Emma is listening to them and has learned a whole lot that way and we’ve made huge progress. And I think Emma’s finally on board and I think she’s finally listening and reading the notebooks for the first time. So, that’s huge progress. So, I’m glad it helped you too. Thank you!
So all of that to say we are learning about trust. I so appreciate those of you who have emailed us through the website, systemspeak.org, and who have said such kind things and been so encouraging, because this has been terrifying and really risky and scary. And that’s been a hard thing. And we’re entering into a new season, not on the podcast, in real life of things being scary in a new way.
So with the therapist, it feels like we’re starting to talk about things more and so that feels scary in a new way and the husband, nothing bad has happened with him, but he has been getting better at noticing us and who is out and what’s going on. And so that feels scary in a new way and we feel so seen and known and heard. [Laughs] You know, all those things in a relationship? Like in therapy too. So it’s super scary, but we are working on it and we’re learning.
Another area that is scary is that our friend Julie, who we’ve talked to twice on the podcast, has sent us a package for our birthday. And all of this is leading up to that, because it’s a really scary thing. What if secretly Julie is a creeper? And it’s a bad thing? Except she’s not. She’s very kind. We know her really well. We have a PO Box which we shared with her, because she wanted to send us something for our birthday. And our birthday was last week. We didn’t really talk about it a lot, because it has been a bad thing kind of in the past and not a positive experience. And also birthdays are kind of a relational holiday in a way and when you’re terrible at having friends, then birthdays really suck. [Laughs] So it was kind of our first experience to pretend to even try to have a birthday and that was from a thousand miles apart. So, this is a big deal for us. So, we do have a PO Box. Julie has sent something for our birthday and we are going to go inside with us and pick it up, because it’s scary and exciting. Except she really has been very kind. So a shout out to Julie, who has been very patient with us for ages - months and months and months and months, while we have very, very, very slowly gotten to know her and she has been a constant encouragement for which I am grateful. She is my homegirl. Except, you know, safely, from a thousand miles away. [Laughs]
Also, when I say I don’t have friends, it hurts her feelings, because when you have a friend or someone who’s trying to be a friend, you can’t say you don’t have friends. So, I got called out for that too, like more than once. So, I’m trying, but I don’t know. It’s just a hard thing.
Okay, so you’re going in with me to get the post office box, whatever it is she sent us. I have no idea what it is. We’re going to go inside to the post office box and then we’ll come back and open it in the car. Are you ready?
[Background noise of keys jingling]
[Background noise of wind]
[Background noise of a door opening]
[Background noise of walking]
[Background noise of opening the PO Box]
It’s a key inside the PO Box.
[Background noise of closing the PO box]
Because friendship is scary. So, our post office box has a key in it and now we go to another post office box that’s bigger to get our birthday package. Where is it? This one.
[Background noise of opening the bigger PO box]
Oh my goodness!
[Background noise of closing the bigger PO box]
It’s so big. It says, “To SystemSpeak.” That’s us. Ah! Okay, so excited.
[Background noise of door opening]
Let’s go open it.
[Background noise of wind]
[Background noise of car door opening and closing]
[Background noise of keys jingling]
Okay, we are so excited. We are so excited. So, while I’m talking about friendships and relationships and caverns and Indiana Jones today, let me say...wait no, first let me lock my door. Okay, sorry. So easily creeped out, you know? So, it is hard to even be friends with other survivors, because we have been burned in the past. We had to go to group and try to make friends there. There are good things about being friends with people who understand, but just because someone says they understand doesn’t mean they really do and also you have different experiences and also, just because someone says they understand doesn’t make them safe. So, one thing that we’ve had to learn is that when you’re trying to be friend with someone, safety matters even if they say that they know about DID or even if they understand or even if they’re another survivor and that’s true all the time.
Let me give a more neutral example. People all the time will come up and tell me, “Oh, we saw a deaf person at the grocery store.” That doesn’t make them my friend. It doesn’t mean I know who they are. Just because they are also deaf, does not mean we are also best friends. People are like, “Oh, I’m so excited. I saw a deaf person...da,da,da.” That’s awesome. Yay deaf people. Shout out to deaf people. That doesn’t mean that they’re my best friend. [Laughs] I can’t tell you how many times that happens. They’re like, “We saw this deaf girl and she had this kind of hair and this kind of outfit. What’s her name?” I don’t know who you saw at the grocery store. I wasn’t there. Just because we’re both deaf does not mean we’re best friends. I mean, okay, so the same thing with the survivor community. Just because we are both in group or just because we both have shared some experience doesn’t mean that we’re friends. You have to build relationship or a friendship and make sure the other person is safe and that person needs to be doing their healthy work to keep themselves healthy. And you have to do your healthy work to keep yourself healthy. But if you both do those things, then friendship is possible and that’s a good thing.
And so far, Julie has put up with us and so now, we’re going to open our first package.
[Background noise of paper ruffling]
We’re so excited. Julie, that was so nice of you. That was really very kind. It’s also pretty special. It’s the only birthday present we got actually. We did not even get birthday presents from our family. I mean like, the parents are dead. Once your parents die, nobody cares about your birthday anymore. [Laughs] First of all, let’s just talk about that. I don’t even want to talk about birthdays from childhood. That’s a whole different podcast episode, but let’s just talk about when your parents die, nobody cares about you anymore. You are an orphan. It doesn’t matter if you’re an adult. Game over, people. [Laughs] So when it was bad to begin with and then also just stops existing, that’s confusing. Because there’s not even a false hope that things will be good sometime. It kind of erases some of that masochism of maybe this time it will be good. It gets rid of that, because it’s just over, like you’re out of quarters.
So this is the first present I’ve gotten. We are married, but we do not have money to spend on presents and the husband will make us an ornament every Christmas. He makes an ornament for us, which is super sweet. But we just don’t do presents. Presents are not his love language. His love language is being the best husband in the whole world the rest of the year. So, I’m okay with that. That is a fair exchange and I fully accept it. But it makes it super exciting we got a present in the mail. Yay, Julie!
Because you know...friends. So we’ll see what our present is.
[Background noise of opening the package]
It’s like a big, brown envelope, but it’s hard to open. It’s pretty thick. It’s longer than my arm and thick like a book. Like a big dictionary, except it’s not heavy and it’s not a book. So that’s the size that it is.
Okay, I’m opening...oh my goodness, they have several things in there. I’m pulling out [laughs] scented gel pens - 30 gel pens. Awww, Julie, that’s so sweet! We write in our notebooks all the time. We carry a bag of pens around with us all the time. So she knows that we’re using the pens and using them up and we go through pens faster than anything. It’s crazy how many pens we go through. So, that’s so sweet and so extra thoughtful. They’re scented gel pens. I don’t even know what to do with that. I never had scented gel pens. Does that make therapy happy and sweet? Is that what this is?
Let me see. I’m going to open one. This one says Basket of Berries. Oh wow! That’s crazy. Julie, that was so nice. Aww, that’s just so sweet. Okay, this is amazing and I’m totally not going to be able to stay present right now. So, I’m going to put them away. Not because I don’t love them, because other people love them too. [Laughs] Do you know our therapist gave us a little sack of little things at Christmas time? It was a really powerful thing. It was such a simple thing. I don’t mean a simple gift. Gift giving can be such a simple thing and in an expression of caring about someone in a way that’s just thoughtful. That’s really a special kind of thing. I don’t know. I feel like that teaches me something about relationships and expressing care within a relationship that is still new to me. And I’m trying to learn and practice, because none of this comes intuitively to me.
So, okay, the markers and the pens are amazing. I love them so much, but I’m totally putting them away because I will not get to stay here and see everything else. So, we’re going to just keep going.
[Background noise of a package]
Okay, there is a sleep mask in here. You know for like sleeping that covers your eyes? And it says, “Sorry, we’re closed.” [Laughs] That’s so funny. Oh my goodness, it’s so soft. Julie, thank you! That’s so sweet.
Okay, and now the other thing that’s in this package, Julie, I’m going to kill you. I can’t believe you did this. Ugh! You are so not my friend anymore. She sent...they’re recognition awards. They’re like...it’s a stack of like teacher certifications...I mean like teachers would give to students. They say, “Outstanding!” and “Well done” and “Great Job!” And then you fill out on them who they’re to, what they’re for, and you sign them. And so I know this is JohnMark and his badges and now these are going to be crazy in the way. Oh my goodness. I can't believe you did this. You’re in so much trouble. That’s really funny.
Awww, now there are different cards for everybody. You know what? That’s a powerful thing. I know that if you're friends with someone else who’s a system that that’s a whole lot of relationships. In a system, that’s a whole lot of different kinds of relationships inside us. So even learning how to navigate that, but how the husband navigates all the different relationships with us is… I don’t know how he does that. I can’t even do that yet. And the therapist...the therapist did like this...like what Julie did...when we were first starting sometime last summer, after we had been in therapy for a little while and she knew us a little bit, she wrote a letter in our journal. So we turn in our notebook, we write, write, write, write, write, write, ...with scented gel pens and we turn in our notebook and then we get the notebook back from the week before. She’s torn out what we wrote so that we can finish the pages in it. You know what I mean? So we have this notebook exchange. And one time when we got the notebook back, she had written in it and she had written a letter to everyone that had either written or talked to her so far. And so we have...actually we keep it in our bag with all the pens in it...we keep it there...we have this stack of letters that she wrote to everybody and we read them every day. Sometimes more than once or twice or three or four times, because they help so much for that connection and remembering. That is an example of throwing stones on that board so that you can take that leap of faith and step out, because they are real, because she wrote to them and she is real because she wrote to us and therapy is real because she talked...like, you know what I mean?
It’s like when we interviewed Jane Hart and she talked about the denial book. We don’t have one of those, but this helps us with that. When that connection is really hard to hold onto, those letters that our therapist wrote to each of us really help a lot. And so we have those and we have the bear and we have the watch and we have these different things that help us solidify in a tangible way, we can hold onto this and we can hold onto that. The week when she goes on spring break, we will probably carry those letters around in our actual pocket, not just the bag with the pens in it all day long so that we can physically touch them and hold them. That’s how much something like that matters.
And so the fact that Julie wrote these, Julie, that was so sweet that you sent cards to everyone. Here’s on for Emma. Here’s one for the boys. Here’s one for everybody, Emma and Company it says. One for Em. And one for Doctor E. So I will leave all of theirs, but I’m totally opening mine. It says, “The coolest most awesome, most sassy Sasha.” [Laughs] Don’t you forget it. Don’t you know it. Aww, Julie, my homegirl. It has sparkly stickers all over the outside with glitter. That’s so funny.
You know Em told the kids, the outside kids [laughs]...Em told the outside kids that we’re allergic to glitter and so glitter is not allowed in our house. [Laughs] So when the kids do projects at school with glitter, they tell their teacher their mom is allergic and they have to leave the projects at school. [Laughs] Oh, it makes me laugh.
Okay, I’m opening my birthday card. It has my name on it. I’m leaving all the others for them.
[Background noise of opening an envelope]
So many stickers. I love the stickers. Oh my goodness, it has cheese on the front. You guys, I’m a fan of cheese. I’m not kidding. [Laughs] And the best cheese I ever had was when I lived in France and Germany and up there in the Alps. Like ugh, the cheese, you guys. You have no idea it was like the feat of God. It was so good. So there’s cheese on the front. It says, “Happy Birthday to one of the gouda ones. You better brie-lieve it.” Oh my goodness, it’s so clever. “Just a cheesy wish for a happy birthday.” Aww. “Sasha, I hope you have the best day ever. I saw this card and thought of your love of cheese and knew you had to have it. Happy Birthday to the coolest most awesome, sassiest friend ever. Your number one friend, Julie.” Julie, you’re going to make me cry. That was very sweet and that was very kind and also it made me hungry. [Laughs]
So, thank you so much for the birthday cards, for the emails for the website and for the encouragement to keep going on the podcast and to keep sharing and to keep going to therapy, which I’m trying to. We have driven early. We are here. We are ready for therapy tomorrow and here it’s fine. The sun is out and it’s like 70 degrees. How can four hours of geography make that much of a difference? I don’t even know.
Okay, I’m going to take my cheese lover card. That’s just so sweet. That’s funny. That’s funny. Thank you, Julie. Thank you for the people who have been emailing and the friends I’m just getting to know and also hello to Megan. I need to write her back. Thank you, seriously. All joking aside, thank you seriously for the encouragement to stay in therapy, to keep doing the podcast, and to keep sharing and helping us connect together as a community in good and positive ways and I appreciate that we get to learn together and that we all feel a little less alone in the process. I hope you have a great day and happy birthday to us, I guess. So maybe that’s part of what we’re reclaiming in this whole process, right? I don’t know. We’ll see. Thanks, guys!
[Break]
Thank you for listening. Your support really helps us feel less alone while we sort through all of this and learn together. Maybe it will help you in some ways too. You can connect with us on Patreon. And join us for free in our new online community by going to our website at www.systemspeak.org. If there's anything we've learned in the last four years of this podcast, it's that connection brings healing. We look forward to connecting with you.