Transcript: Episode 61
61. Guest: Justin from Polyvagal Podcast
Welcome to the System Speak podcast. If you would like to support our efforts at sharing our story, fighting stigma about Dissociative Identity Disorder, and educating the community and the world about trauma and dissociation, please go to our website at www.systemspeak.org, where there is a button for donations and you can offer a one time donation to support the podcast or become an ongoing subscriber. You can also support us on Patreon for early access to updates and what’s unfolding for us. Simply search for Emma Sunshaw on Patreon. We appreciate the support, the positive feedback, and you sharing our podcast with others. We are also super excited to announce the release of our new online community - a safe place for listeners to connect about the podcast. It feels like any other social media platform where you can share, respond, join groups, and even attend events with us, including the new monthly meetups that start this month. Go to our web page at www.systemspeak.org to join the community. We're excited to see you there.
[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
***Interview Begins***
Interviewer: Bold Font
Interviewee: Standard Font
Morning.
Good morning! Thank you for talking to me.
You’re very welcome.
I’m super excited about your podcast. I actually just presented about Polyvagal Theory at a conference last weekend, and so many people were already listening to your podcast and knew about it.
Oh, really? That’s so cool.
It’s exciting. It’s exciting. So, go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit and then we can chat about it.
Okay. My name is Justin Sunseri. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of California. I am currently working with -- in a public school system. So, I work with mostly teenagers. I’ve been a therapist for, I think, 11 years now, and all of my experiences have been with teens. I’ve worked with a lot of younger kids as well. I’ve done a lot of family therapy, play therapy, sandtray, substance abuse counseling, that kind of stuff.
Yeah, so many different sort of -- I’ve worked in outpatient and drug rehab. I’ve worked in group homes and now in the public school system.
That’s amazing.
Yeah, I love working with kids. I didn’t -- when I was in school, I always had the private practice thing in my head, but once I got going, I realized that working with kids and families and parents is tons of fun. Which I could do private practice, but I don’t know. I’ve enjoyed -- I’ve gotten such a wide range of experience in different settings and also different cities that it’s been very, very fulfilling.
That’s great. That’s great. Where did you first hear about Polyvagal?
Last summer. So again, I work in the school district. So, I don’t get summers off exactly. I still meet with kids in the summer and do some stuff, but I do have more time in the summer to do research and do program development and stuff. So last summer I didn’t feel super satisfied with my level of understanding trauma. And I thought I was a good therapist and all of that. I felt confident, but I felt like there was a gap in my understanding and my ability to help people, especially ones that are more shut down and more -- were dissociative. And that’s when I started doing research on trauma and just through research videos and reading articles and what not, but I stumbled upon Peter Levine. Are you familiar with him at all?
Mmhmm.
And somatic experiencing, and that absolutely just blew me out of the water to see someone who could work with trauma in a much different way. So, that just got me really interested about the body and how trauma stays in the body and that connected me just continuing to research to Dr. Porges. And I saw a couple of his lectures, and was again just like blown out of the water that he was able to articulate and really bring this new understanding of how trauma works.
The mechanics of it seemed pretty straight forward, and so that really revolutionized the way that I worked with the kids that I work with. And especially with the kids that are more dissociative, and have heavy trauma. And I noticed that when I started implementing these things into my work over the past year or so, that there was a significant difference in how kids were presenting to me, and opening up to me and especially in the level of safety.
And I think kids always felt safe with me, but now that I was more aware of it and really focusing on the safety cues that I was giving. I was seeing a difference in how -- I don’t think how rapidly is a good way to measure progress or whatever, but they were divulging trauma a lot more quickly, you know? And that really kind of struck me as woah, I’m doing something different here, and I think they’re feeling safer and now I’m kind of getting more information out of them, and I’m seeing healing quicker as well.
Wow. I worked for many years as an outpatient, or home based counseling, and seeing adolescents in schools and in the community. Were you surprised how much -- not just how much trauma was out there, but how many of them really were shut down and dissociative?
Once I recognized what was happening, yes. And I knew that I was meeting with kids that were dissociating. I knew that I was meeting with kids that had heavy trauma histories. I knew that, but after understanding the Polyvagal Theory, and especially Dr. Porges, they’ve done some really good things about Polyvagal in therapy. And then Peter Levine being able to track where trauma stays in the body and all of that stuff.
So, once I was able to track that in session and see how the kids I was meeting with in shut down mode, or in fight, flight, or in safety mode -- once I was able to recognize that, it really kind of shook me. I don’t know. It really changed the way that I was understanding in session. Does that answer your question? I feel like I drifted off there?
No. No. That was good. What are you doing differently when you talk about giving cues for safety?
So, the vocal processing thing?
Yes.
Where you use a more -- well, basically a less monotone voice -- and I think as a male therapist that male’s voices generally have a flatter, more monotone sound to them. And so I was more aware of that and really making sure that my care for the students I was meeting with was coming through my voice, and allowing my voice to go up and down, and really using every opportunity that I had to speak, to use that as an intervention in and of itself. So, that was one cue that I really focused on.
The other cue was my body posture and do a lot of mirroring with my clients. But providing safe cues with my body, making sure that I’m enough distance and all that. And what else? Oh, my face. So, really making sure that I’m giving safe facial cues and being aware that when things, difficult things come up in session, what is my face showing? Am I going flat? You know? A lot of times I’ll meet the client where they’re at. If they’re dissociating, I feel myself going there just as part of the empathetic process. So, monitoring that within myself and then making sure that I’m connected to my safe and social engagement system, and really showing that through my face and using my eyes - like showing eye crinkles which is a safety cue, a soft gentle gaze, rather than seeing through them or something like that. So yeah, my face, my voice, body posture, spacing. All that kind of stuff really -- as I became more and more aware of it, I noticed that they were -- it seemed like -- I know that they’re feeling more safe because I see them going up the ladder within the session. And it seems more rapidly honestly. So, I see them go from -- I see students that go from being very dissociative to by the time we’re leaving that session that they’re making eye contact with me, we’re smiling together, and that there’s a shift there. You know?
That’s amazing. How do you talk to them about tracking in their body?
Well, I very simply break down the Polyvagal ladder, and that is safety, and then when we don’t feel safe, we drop down into flight mode. If we can’t run away from a situation, we drop into fight mode. And if we can’t fight against it, then we shut down completely, and that looks different ways.
So, I very simply break down those steps and so we kind of come to that during the session. So, they’re able to recognize in their body, where they’re at, and I really encourage them to listen to their body, and I point to my chest or my gut, and really sort of visually align them with this is -- what are you feeling here? What are you feeling here? Are we feeling something somewhere else? And just those four steps of safety, flight, fight, and shut down, just those four steps seem to be enough for them to realize where they’re at.
And as the session goes along we’ll check in with that, and they can see that they’re going up the ladder. You know? And so that awareness is one thing, but once a child gets into that safety mode, I like to kind of just for a moment notice it, and there’s kids that don’t get safety at all outside of my session, which is of course super sad. But you can see them reach that point of true connection, because now they’re making eye contact, and they’re holding it, and I can see them experiencing that for the first time. And it’s really this sort of -- on my end, it’s a beautiful moment to see someone get there and to see color come back into their face, like their cheeks get pink, and they’re making eye contact, and they’re smiling, and they’re really sort of -- there’s really sort of a twinkle in their eye. It’s kind of weird, but they’re really sort of experiencing the moment with me and realizing, and I’ll bring some attention to it that what we’re feeling right now -- this feeling feels like safety. And they’ll say, “I’ve never felt this before.”
And so now we have an experience that we can pull from as we move forward. You know?
How do their teachers or other people around notice when these kids are improving, or that’s translating to other areas of their life? Or are you able to teach them, the teachers, about some of that language? Or what are you seeing?
I’m seeing teachers desperate for this knowledge, and I do collaborate with teachers and do kind of share with them in very simple terms where these students are at. Like this student you’re seeing more in flight mode, that’s why we see them, these certain behaviors. It’s not because they’re bad, or because they’re bad kids or whatever, or that they’re trying to avoid their work exactly. It’s because they’re down the ladder, they’re in this sort of flight mode, and to ask them to sit and learn is -- it’s not going to go very far.
So, they get that, and with very simple language, they understand that. But the problem I’m having is that not enough teachers know this and I’m very impatient. [Laughing]
Right.
So, I’m really pushing, and I’ve done a couple of professional development days where I can teach teachers. I’ve done a couple of those and they absolutely love it, and they eat it up. But if teachers -- I’m noticing so far that if teachers know where their students are at, if they can see a child as really unsafe, rather than having a mental disability or mental disorder or mental health disorder I mean -- if they can see them as being unsafe, then it brings a lot more empathy and understanding and patience.
What’s really cool is as I explain these simple concepts, the teachers will look inward and be like, “Oh, I drop up the ladder in class as well.” And then again, the empathy really kind of kicks in and they instantly change what they’re doing once that awareness comes within themselves as well.
So they’re working through the physical aspect of even the whole shame theory stuff, because they are changing the quality of connection they have.
I think so. I think that alleviating shame is a nice little byproduct, but really if teachers can be a safe and social person consistently, even in those difficult times, that those safety cues -- that’s what’s going to help the student come back into safety - the social engagement system. But I know that when these behaviors pop up, like a melt down in class, or not sitting still, or screaming in class or whatever, of course we have a reaction to that, and of course teachers will drop down the ladder as well. So, the point here is to notice what’s happening, but can you stay in your social engagement system, and not -- and it’s okay to drop down the ladder. I get that’s happening. There’s no shame there, but can you stay intact enough with your social engagement system to be that safe person for the student in that moment.
That seems like it’s not just because we’re talking about safety -- that’s not just healing, but it’s also preventative.
Oh, hugely. Yeah, the benefit of this is -- and this is kind of where my hope has shifted in the school system, is that we wait, sadly, we wait for problems to occur and then we address it. And that’s not preventative. That’s reactionary. And really what we want -- what my goal is, is to implement these ideas into the classroom before there’s a problem. Because I’ve talked to teachers who I say, “Even if we get this kid into a safe and social mode, even if we address it with this one kid, next year there’s going to be another kid. So, it’s not about the one kid or the two kids or whatever. It’s about the classroom structure. It’s about the school climate. I want to prevent these things from popping up in the first place. So, we can’t really wait for the problem. We really have to be very proactive about these things.” And I haven’t gotten that message out as far as I’d like to you, but I think that will be happening more next year as I continue to do these professional developmental days.
But there was a principal I talked to and as we were talking about this ladder stuff, he recognized in himself, “Oh, when I interact with the kids, I’m down the ladder. And I’m not giving those safe social cues. My face goes flat and my voice goes monotone.” So, he realized that, and he took it upon himself and he said, “I should probably start doing -- providing more safe and social cues. And I should probably start connecting with these students more often and really make an effort to connect with them.” So, that’s kind of where I’m at. That’s my goal. And once teachers and principals hear this, it instantly clicks. They get it. So, it’s just a matter of -- and I’m lucky that I’m able to take these really complex ideas from, actually they’re pretty simple ideas from Dr. Porges, but the language is pretty complex, and then to translate that into language that’s pretty easily understandable by everybody as far as I’m finding so far.
How have you done that with the podcast? How did you start translating this neuroscience and these concepts into simple language that’s been so effective on the podcast?
That, actually, I’ve had some help with that. So, I’m able to understand the concepts and then what I was doing was for my first professional development, I simplified the language enough - like the word neuroception. I use that on the podcast, but rather than saying neuroception -- when I present it to the teachers I’ll say body perception, which is not 100% the way Dr. Porges probably wants it, but it makes sense instantly. And if someone doesn’t have to learn a new term -- like body perception is pretty easily understandable right away. So that’s the way my body perceives things. And it’s the same concept as neuroception, so I just sort of switch it over. On the podcast, I do use neuroception, which is basically the body detection of safety and danger cues internally and externally.
Right.
So, what I’ll do is I simplify it as much as I possibly can, and just really kind of streamline this in a way that people will understand instantly. And so far, the reaction I’ve gotten from people is like, “This is so easy to understand. I get it. Thank you so much.” But actually, my boss at work, with my first presentation, I showed her, and she was like, “You really got to dwindle this down even more.” So, she helped me to streamline it down even further with the basic ideas and really forced me to ask myself, “Can I actually explain these concepts very simply to anybody?” So, it was nice to have feedback from somebody. But now I feel like I’m able to do so, and right now the podcast audience, they’re getting it really easily and it makes perfect sense to them.
When I talk about this stuff to clients, they get it instantly. It’s so simple. And once you know it, I think, in your head and then you check in with your body, it makes sense instantly, like that’s what I went through. I went through these steps in that situation or those situations. And so it instantly kicks in like, “Yeah, I went into shut down in those moments.” And once they get it, it instantly brings this sense of normalization of like, “Oh, that’s why I did that thing and that’s actually really normal and very expected, because I’m a mammal. I get it now.”
I talk about this with really young kids, and they get it. They get it right away. And they’re able to pinpoint when I’m in class, I feel like running away. Or when I’m at home around my sibling, I feel like fighting.
It’s amazing how the truth of it is so, not just understood, but experienced immediately.
I agree with you. You’re so right that it’s like this instant we get it in our head, but then we feel it. I think we feel it in our bodies of like, “that’s right.” That’s right. And when we talk about this stuff, people and I’m sure there people who are listening, you instantly look inward. You know what I mean? So, when I present this to teachers I predicted it. I say to the teachers, “I know when you listen to this stuff, you’re going to think about your kids first, and then you’re going to start wondering about your own kids in your own, or your family members, and then you’re going to apply this to yourself.” Because you just can’t help it. You can’t help it. Like as I hear these things, it makes sense to apply it to your daily life and to your own past. You just go there.
My hope is that, on my podcast, my hope and my goal is to present this in a very safe way. I don’t want anyone listening to the podcast to be triggered into any sort of self harming or severe dissociation or whatever. Of course I don’t have control over that, but what I do have control over is the way that I present things. My huge, huge goal is to present things in ways that are easily understandable and very safe to hear, but I do know that people are going to apply this stuff to themselves. But yeah, I think it’s possible to present this stuff in a way that’s easy to understand, but also very safe.
And I’ll use -- I use music during my podcast every now and then. I’ll do like an intro music -- I’m sorry, I do have -- I always have my intro music, but I’ll do like a music sample.
Right.
To kind of break -- yeah, we kind of like break down how we feel during it. I’ve incorporated these chimes into my podcast just to sort of recenter and give people a chance to breathe before we go to the main topic. So, things like that, just these audio sort of cues that are safe and give people a chance to sort of mentally breathe. You know?
How did you get from your research last summer to a podcast this year?
When I research things, I don’t take it lightly. I’m pretty obsessive, and it was almost all consuming. Luckily I have good boundaries and I know when it’s family time, and I know when it’s work time. But luckily, with my work, I’m able to do research, and I’m able to learn, and that’s okay, because I’m a therapist and I work in the school system. So, my boss encourages us to continue our development. So, I’m able to learn at work, which is good.
But this carried over into like, I’d be awake from 9 o’clock to midnight studying and learning. I like to draw. I’ve been drawing a lot as I’m listening to lectures by Dr. Porges. It got to the point where I was really -- I got it. I was reading books, and articles, and anything I could find, I was just consuming it. And I got it. I got it well enough to where I thought well, I can translate this and talk about it. And I did that at work with a couple of presentations to staff, and then I was like, “You know what? I really can do this.” And if people got it right away, they loved it, and that was the feedback that I was getting from people was that this was so helpful, and instantly made sense. And a couple of staff people said, “Where can I go for help?” They realized, “I need some therapy. I need to talk to someone. Where can I go for that?”
So, it had such an instant and beneficial impact that I can’t just sit on this and keep it to myself. And I know a lot of people are talking about this stuff, but I feel like I can do it in a pretty unique way, and I think I bring a unique perspective as with working in the school system, and having lots of experience in working with kids and parents and families. So, I felt like it’s just not something that I can sit on, and that I have to. I almost felt compelled, like I just have to talk about this out loud, because I think it can be super beneficial to so many people right away. So, if I just sat on this without doing anything about it, I would feel really antsy. I wouldn't feel right. I’d feel like I’m missing out on part of who I am, which is to talk about things and to sort of help. You know? I just had this impulse to help.
Why a podcast? Why that? Were you already a fan of podcasts? Have you done other podcasts? Or why the podcast specifically?
I thought that audio would be the best way to go, because it allows -- these aren’t ideas that we can give simply, but it allows enough time to really break down ideas and to really go in depth to them. You know, a blog is fine. There’s something about hearing a voice I think is -- it can be a safe experience. And I think that’s some of the feedback that I’ve gotten from people was that somehow hearing my voice is kind of soothing.
One of my listeners, she says that she’ll listen to my podcast on Sunday nights during her meal prep time for the week. And she told me, “Hearing your voice during those Sunday nights where I’m usually pretty anxious and prepping my meals, something about it is kind of soothing.” So, I think that’s a benefit. And I think I do better with saying things out loud. I tried -- I’ve attempted blogging in the past, and I’m not -- it just didn’t feel right. And I could do a YouTube video thing, but the amount of editing time and what not, I don’t know if I have the patience for it.
So, I thought podcasting is straight forward enough and it gives me enough time to go really deep into ideas. And as far as my life goes, it’s streamlined. I record it, do a little bit of editing, and I upload it. So, it’s streamline, it fits into my lifestyle pretty darn well.
I have done some blogging. I do have a few posts on my website. I want to keep -- basically, what I’ll do is people will ask me a question and I’ll use that on the blog anonymously. I’ll edit the heck out of the question too. So I have some blog stuff going, but just talking out loud seems to be a more of a natural fit for me. And I do a lot of outlining, but I like to talk out loud. I’ve been doing parenting presentations my entire therapy career - for the past 11 years. I have so much fun doing those. Honestly, I really prefer talking out loud with people and getting those reactions and seeing those lightbulbs go off. I love that experience.
So, doing the podcast is like at least get half of the experience where I’m talking out loud. But really, I want to transition into doing speaking engagements, because I love the interaction. I love seeing those lightbulbs go off and experiencing that in the moment.
Have you been surprised how well the podcast has taken off so early?
Yes. Yes, I am. I am constantly [laughing] surprised. I check my stats throughout the day just because I’m so curious, and it feels good. It’s kind of rewarding to see that - the amount of listeners going up daily. So yeah, absolutely blown away.
One of the big boosts that happened recently was on Instagram. I believe her name is The Holistic Psychologist - the.holistic.psychologist. I believe that’s her name, or her handle. She basically just shared something in her stories that I posted and in one day I’d gotten 800 new followers, which is huge. And I’m sure a good chunk of those people gave the podcast a try. So, but yeah, absolutely blown away that people are attracted to this. They’ve heard of the Polyvagal Theory and so what they’re doing is they’re looking up the Polyvagal Theory and they’re finding my podcast, because it’s pretty darn niche. Noone else is doing that as far as I know. So, the way that people are finding it is surprising to me and how many people are attracted to it.
I know the information’s good. And I know that it’s helpful. I think it’s very healing, but I am surprised it’s taken off this quickly, this much. I’m only a couple months into it, and I have a pretty deep listener base and people who are DMing and emailing and saying how beneficial it is. So yeah, I’m pleasantly, pleasantly surprised - extremely humbled. Like wow, I really have to make sure I’m taking it very seriously, a lot of responsibility over it, because I know that people listening to it are desperate for help. So, I really put it on myself to treat that with a lot of respect. You know?
I keep saying “you know.” That’s a way to the end the sentence. [Laughing]
[Laughing] That’s okay. I think that it speaks to how well you’re doing it and how connected you are to your audience which sort of emphasizes the topic you’re talking about, because people keep listening. But I also think it speaks to how badly people need to know about this, and how important and what a breakthrough it is to understand this. People are hungry for it in the first place.
They really are, and I think that people are hungry for normalization - to feel normal, and to feel like they're not different. And I think it’s sad, because I think that in my profession, that we don’t do a super great job of that. And that therapist rely on things like saying that people have a chemical imbalance or that they have some sort of hereditary problem. And I can’t prove or disprove that, but I don’t see it as super healing. So, to tell people about their autonomic nervous system, which seems odd, but that we shift to these different states based on safety and danger, that is instantly. I’m always blown away about how instantly people get that. Right away, it brings a sense of -- and I hear it from the clients that I meet with, and I’m seeing it from people that listen, that like, “Oh, that makes sense. That I get.” Rather than leaving a therapy appointment with them being told that they have some sort of chemical imbalance, which doesn’t really -- I don’t know how helpful that is. Whether it’s true or not, I don’t know how helpful that is. You know?
Butt hearing that you’re normal seems to help. And being able to explain to someone, “I can prove your normal. This is what our bodies go through.” And for them to be able to like, “Yeah. That’s it. That’s what I went through. That’s it right there.” And then to say, “Yeah, that’s how you’re supposed to handle the situation. You were in an experience where you thought your, or your body felt like your body was under life threat, so you shut down. You’re supposed to do that.”
And that, right away is like, “Oh.” it doesn't fix everything. It doesn’t heal everything, but I definitely think it starts the process.
Absolutely. It’s so powerful.
It is. Yeah. It’s hugely powerful. But it’s so simple too.
Right.
And when you hear it, your body knows it. It’s like, “Yeah, that’s what I went through.” Your body knows.
Yes, yes, yes. What would you tell someone who is a listener, just in mostly adults on this podcast, but what would you tell someone who didn’t know anything about Polyvagal that is specific for someone who is often dissociating or needing to be more grounded or more connected to their body?
I would really encourage them to just learn the fundamentals. Is it okay if I go through the fundamentals real quick?
Absolutely. I will be putting links to your podcast, of course, up, but definitely give us a run down.
Thank you. And so on the podcast, I go way into these ideas, in a very safe way.
Right.
But the fundamentals are that we, as mammals, not just because we’re human, but just as mammals. We share this trait with dogs, and I think dolphins. I think dolphins are mammals, right? Dolphins and dogs and I don’t know other primates. So, it’s not just because we’re human, but mammals, we have this thing called our social engagement system. And when we’re in our social engagement system, we’re able to do things like smile with each other and use vocal prosody, which is our voice going up and down, just like mine is doing right now. Like when you ask a question, you end the question like, “Do you know what I mean?” Your voice goes up at the end of the question, that’s vocal prosody. We’re using our up and down ability, and that’s a cue of safety.
So, there’s all these things that we do in our social engagement system, like eye contact and eye crinkles, and like I said smiles. So, that’s our social engagement system, and when our body perceives danger, which is called neuroception -- when our body detects danger, we shift down. Peter Levine calls it the Polyvagal ladder. We shift down into flight mode which is basically our engine starts going and we want to run away. That’s the basic idea.
And when we can’t run away from certain situations that are dangerous, we shift down into fight mode, which is when we want to fight. We have no other option but to fight back. But in many situations where we’re overpowered or we perceive the person in the room has more power than us, like a principal, or a parent that’s abusive, that we shift down into our shutdown state. If we can’t run away, and we can’t fight, then we basically shut down. We perceive or we neurocept, our body perceives or detects that we are under life threat, and so we shut down, which can look like collapsing or actual freezing, or even dissociation, where we -- the experience of leaving our bodies.
So, that’s the nuts and bolts of it. That’s the basics of it, and it’s not like we choose to do these things. These things just happen, and we -- it’s not a choice. And that’s what I love about the Polyvagal theory. Because I know a lot of survivors will have a lot of blame, self blame, a lot of shame, and they’ll ask like, “Why didn’t I do this or that?” But it’s not about why didn’t you, it’s about your body survived. It did what it had to do to survive the situation.
So, for the listeners that might be more dissociative, that’s the process that you may have gone through, and it’s expected. That’s kind of how it’s supposed to happen when we’re under life threat, and that’s how opossums experience life threat, they just sort of shut down. And so the experience of dissociation in particular from what Dr. Porges says that when we’re in shut down mode, our heart beat goes way low, and our blood pressure goes a lot lower. Our body is conserving its energy in preparation. It goes numb. But what happens is our blood flow to the brain drastically reduces, and that’s the experience of dissociation.
So, if you’re listening and dissociation is something you’re experiencing, it’s part of the shutdown response. For some reason, your body is experiencing a life threat detection. You can drop your kids off at school, and something might trigger that, and then your body perceives that it's under life threat, which will be, of course, connected to the past. It’s not about am I under life threat in the moment. It’s about when we survive traumas, we can easily stay stuck in those defensive states. Does that make sense?
Yes.
Okay, so that’s what I would say is that of course it’s tied to the past. It seems like darn near all of childhood and the way we were raised, the things that we survived, and that carries -- if we don’t get healing from that, we stay stuff in these defensive states. I’ll keep it there. I don’t want to go too deep into that, but that’s the basic idea.
And as we stay stuck in these states, these states, we can stay stuck in shut down in this sort of dissociative state for years and years and years and years. And so these things -- like some people will be in a situation that they feel or that their body perceives as being a life threat, and they instantly go into that shutdown state, and that’s because they already kind of exist in this shutdown state. They’re already kind of there.
So when they perceive certain things, and it could be the tiniest of triggers that nobody else would ever perceive, but for them, it’s a significant trigger. And they’ll go into that dissociative state, because they’re already kind of there. And they never came out of that and into fight mode and into flight mode and into healing. Because we have to go through the whole process. We can’t just jump into healing - into safe and social engagement, and the safe and social system. We have to go through the ladder. We have to go from shut down into fight mode, into flight mode, and into being safe and social.
That doesn’t mean we have to fight somebody, and that doesn’t mean we actually have to run away from people. But basically, when you go from shutdown into that fight, flight mode, there’s this sympathetic energy that kicks up, like your engine starts going again. And you kind of have to release that energy before going back up into your safety and social engagement system.
Can some of that fight mode, for example, be channeled a bit? Like the therapeutic process that itself can be so intense and difficult. Can you use some of that fight energy and sort of to climb back up into the ladder to focus on therapy and that be what you’re fighting. I don’t mean fighting --
Yeah.
-- therapy, but sort of…. Does that make sense what I’m asking? I’m not sure.
I think so. I’ll do the best I can to answer and let me know if I got it, if it’s helpful or not. But yeah, absolutely. There’s kids that -- I mean, so many of the kids that I work with are ready to fight somebody. And we don’t put on boxing gloves and fight each other. What we do is I help them to notice how they feel, and talk about it. And that seems to help.
But specifically what I’ll do is when they talk about wanting to fight someone, I’ll say, “Tell me about it. Tell me about what you want to do to that person. And that doesn’t make it real.” And that doesn’t make them go out and do it, but what it does is it allows them to visualize it. And in that visualization, the body kind of experiences it. And so that -- and I’ve seen kids do that. Like, “Tell me what you want to do. Tell me what is it you want to say to your mom.” And fighting doesn’t mean fighting. It means being aggressive. So, “I want to tell my mom off.” “Well, alright, let’s act that out. Tell me about it.” And that in itself can help them get to the next step. I’ve seen that kind of help.
And then they go into this sort of flight mode where they’re more anxious, and you can see their legs tapping. And we can do the same process with that. And what I see a lot of when they get to that flight mode, is that now we start talking about independence and getting out of the house, and what does the future look like. And I’ll say, “Well, tell me about it. Tell me what your future looks like. Tell me what it looks like to move out of the house.” And what we’re talking about is escape, and that seems to help.
And then once they do that, then I see them go into making more eye contact with me, really calming down, and being able to think more clearly. So, all that’s just from talking. And I will do things in session here or there like if I know someone’s in fight mode and they’re really struggling with it, then I’ll have them push their hands together and really use their upper muscles. And I’m not nearly an expert in this at all. This is a lot of -- I would recommend people look into somatic experiencing, which is something I would love to do more of. I don’t do that actually. Let me clear that up. I’m not a somatic experiencing practitioner. I am jealous of people who are.
It’s really good, right? [Laughing]
It’s -- oh my god, it seems so amazing. I don’t know. I’m just jealous.
[Laughing]
And I know that -- I don’t know. I’m not ready to go back to school and do all the -- I don’t want more college debt, or school debt. [Laughing] So, I have my stories that keep me away from doing that.
But little simple things like pushing your hands together and really flexing your chest muscles and your arm muscles - that seems to help. And when people and kids do that, they’ll say, “Oh, I feel this tingling” or “I feel like some sort of alleviation.”
Or kids that are more flight mode, even younger ones, instead of telling them, “Hey” -- when I pick them up and walk to our session, I don’t tell them, “Hey, this is how we’re supposed to walk.” I’ll ask them, “How do you want to walk? Do you want to hop to our session? Do you want to run? I’ll run with you. Let’s run. Or do you want to skip or whatever.” That way we’re using that energy and we’re now being mindful of it, and we’re choosing it. And now you’re with someone. You’re feeling safe. There’s some social engagement there.
Or I’ll ask them, “Let’s walk to our session, but let’s count our steps. How many steps do you take? How many steps do I take?” And that -- what it brings -- it just brings us awareness of how your body’s feeling and what it’s doing, because what I’m seeing with people, kids and adults, that are in these modes is that there’s a disconnect. Their body is in this flight mode or fight mode, but there’s a disconnect between the body and the mind. The mind is somewhere else. They’re thinking about all kinds of stuff or avoiding thinking about all kinds of stuff. And their body’s just sort of doing stuff, but they’re not aware of it.
And this really looks like ADHD. I have kids that are shaking their legs all of the time. They’re looking all around. Their body’s doing stuff. They have energy, but they’re not mentally connected to their body. So, the energy -- it doesn’t seem to actually be being discharged. The energy is still there, but once we can bring awareness to how they feel and where they’re storing that energy in their body, that seems to help release some of it. And of course, bringing safe and social cues to the session, and being able to -- that seems to be more healing to combine some sort of physical outlet, or at least an awareness of what our body’s going though and imagining an outlet. That seems to help as well.
Well, and it sounds like you’re not just attuning with them. You’re providing them attunement as well, but --
Yeah.
-- you’re also teaching them how to sort of attune with themselves.
You have to. You really have to. Yeah, just you have to. And sometimes it’s just like for kids that are hugely dissociative, we can still bring some level of attunement to that in recognizing, “Yeah, I’m not in my body.” And I’ll say things like, “Where are you at? Are you floating above your head?” And they’ll be like, “Yeah, I’m there.” So right away there’s some sort of sync happening. And I allow myself, in session, to kind of feel a little bit of what they’re feeling. I’m pretty good with being empathetic, and when I feel dissociative, I know they’re going through that as well, but the difference is that I’m able to stay attached to my safe and social engagement system. So, I’m good. I’m fine, and I can tolerate that easily. But I know that they aren’t, and they’re a lot -- they’re probably -- they’re a lot deeper in that dissociation.
But sometimes I’ll ask them, “Well, how much are you in your body versus not in your body?” And they can say, “I’m 10%. I’m 50% in my body. I’m 75% in my body.” And that brings an awareness, which is something. And then as I continue to provide safe and social cues, I’ll check in with them, “How much are you in your body now?” And it goes up, and it goes up, and it goes up, as I’m just providing safe and social cues, and bringing genuine curiosity, and listening to them - all of that therapeutic kind of stuff. You know?
Oh, I did it again. I said, “You know?” [Laughing]
[Laughing] Yes. I love it. I love it. It’s a good example of it.
Yeah. Yeah. So them being aware of their body is -- I think that’s a major change that I made in how I’m doing therapy. Is even if I’m not a somatic experiencing therapist, I’m not going to pretend to be one. I want to be one.
[Laughing]
But I could at least bring, help them bring an awareness of, “How are you feeling right now in the moment?” And I always throughout the session, I ask, “How are we doing right now?” I don’t interrupt them, but I’ll just pause, “Hey, let’s just check in with ourselves right now. How are you doing?” Because that’s different than, “How did I feel in the past?” And to bring an awareness to the past versus the present could be healing as well. And we track in the moment, “I’m getting better talking about this stuff. Is it helping me get better? Or is it making it worse? Do we have to slow down? Should we take a break? Do we need water?”
And sort of pacing ourselves -- I know that talking about stuff is making stuff worse in the moment -- not make it worse. But the experience of it is difficult in the moment. And some level of that is okay, but I don’t want my clients to go further than they’re able to. And one of the things that I talk about on my podcast is called the vagal brake, which is our ability to be resilient and tolerate going down the ladder, but then coming right back up. And we really have to build our vagal brake, or our resiliency before we push further into some trauma memories and stuff like that.
So, I have to be really attuned to how are we doing right now as we talk about stuff, and where do we need to slow down. Do we need to take a break? Or is that enough for today? And I think that brings a big aware -- not only awareness, but an ownership, and I think resiliency.
Like over time they’re able to tolerate more and more and they’ll sort of disclose more and more of their story, well not story, of what happened to them. I don’t like to call them stories.
How do they develop their vagal brake?
Well, that’s a huge question. It’s a good one though. In session, we develop the vagal brake by, on my end, by providing safe and social cues, and then working their way up the ladder, which is going to build the resiliency. And once they get to the safety state -- to have -- now we know what it looks like. Now we know what it feels like, and now we know what the experience of being safe is. And then as they drop down the ladder, now we can compare that to the safe and social system.
So, developing the vagal brake is really, is the exercising of going up and down the ladder in a safe way. So the kids do this, like our kids in our home, as we play with them, it develops their vagal brake. Because as we play -- so, it’s so important that kids play with their kids. As we play with them, they’re exercising being in a safe and social state with us, like smiling, and laughing, and being tickled, and all of that. But then also, dropping down the ladder in a safe way. So we play tag, they’re being mobilized, they’re running around. They’re using some sympathetic energy, but they’re in a safe and social state.
So, they’re learning to tolerate being in a sympathetic state, which is flight mode, just like playing tag. I know it sounds silly, but that's really what it is. And so they’re learning to go from I’m mobilized, but I can be safe at the same time. And kids that come from homes where they’re not getting safe attachment or safe play, when they’re mobilized, they don’t know how to tolerate that. So, these kids that are -- they go out to their recess or their lunch period, and they’re mobilized, they’re moving around, but they don’t know how to tolerate that and be interactive with other people.
So, their vagal brake is not strong enough, because they haven’t gotten those safe and social cues at home to be able to tolerate things like being mobilized with play, or how to handle a tantrum. Like kids who go on a tantrum are down the ladder. They’re not born being able to self-regulate. As parents, we have to help them. It’s called co-regulation. It’s huge. We have to bring them safe and social cues to help get them out of a tantrum, back up the ladder, and doing that process helps to build the vagal brake. It helps to build their resiliency in handling the stress and handling going down the ladder.
So, if you have a strong enough vagal brake, things throughout the day that are pretty minute -- like the example that I like to use is getting the wrong item at Starbucks or something like that, those little moments that aren’t a big deal for someone who has a good and strong enough vagal brake. They can handle that and be like, “Oh, I got the wrong -- do you mind switching it out?” It’s not a big deal. But for people who don’t have a strong enough vagal brake, those little moments become big moments and they flip out. [Laughing]
Right.
And you know, they tell off the worker or whatever because they’re vagal brake isn’t, at least in that moment, is not strong enough to handle that mild distress. So, the way we build our vagal brake is by handling moments of distress, especially in early childhood, but I think it can help as we get older as well. It’s handling moments of mild distress and realizing that we can access our safe and social system, but the vagal brake is only as strong as it’s developed through childhood and with safe and social people.
But of course, with therapy, as people get older, it’s not like it’s lost. You can totally develop that, but early childhood is so, so important in developing the strength of our vagal brake. And really, the vagal brake is not -- I want to make sure that people understand -- the vagal brake is not a separate thing in our bodies. So, how I understand the vagal brake is the safe and social system, at the top of the Polyvagal ladder, that is the vagal brake. So the strength of our safe and social system actually will inhibit, it will keep down our sympathetic -- I -- let me know if I’m getting too wordy here. But basically, our safe and social system keeps our defensive states, like fight, flight, and shut down, it keeps those at bay. It keeps those down. We don’t drop down into those states when we have a strong enough safe and social system. So, that is the vagal brake. Does that make sense?
Yes. That’s lovely.
Okay. Okay.
And it sounds like for survivors who missed out on those childhood experiences or had other experiences that interfered with those --
Yeah.
-- then the therapeutic process itself, the experience of therapy once you find a good therapist that’s connected and attuned and all of that --
Yeah.
-- then part of what helps is the process itself - almost in like an exposure kind of way of that I am safe.
Yeah.
I can talk about these things, but I am still safe at the same time.
Yeah. I think that’s a really good way of putting it, is that there is -- yeah, I mean therapy is -- there is some level of exposure there, even thinking about whatever happened that you survived or talking about it. Yeah, there’s some level of exposure there. So you are dropping down the ladder if you’re not there already, but you’re also, hopefully, connecting with someone who is actually listening, actually understanding, and giving those safe and social cues. So, those safe and social cues and that connection with that person, that’s what’s going to help you either come out of those defensive states, or to drop down into them as you share your story, and then come right back up.
It reminds me of the way the whole nervous system works itself in that loop. Because even the exposure to it in therapy of experiencing safety, at the same time you’re practicing that. So there’s sort of a double feedback going on.
I’m sorry. I’m going to ask you to repeat that. I want to check in with you to see if you’re okay. For some reason I feel like there’s this urge to check in and make sure you’re okay, because I know this is pretty sensitive stuff. So, I don’t know. I just want to see if you’re doing okay.
Me?
Yeah.
Yes, I’m good.
Is that okay? I just -- I don’t know. I just felt this urge to be like, “Are you doing okay?” And maybe it’s my own stuff coming up. But, are you doing okay?
Yes.
Alright, cool. Do you mind repeating that question? Because I totally lost track there and I went somewhere else. Honestly, I may have dissociated there a little bit.
That’s okay!
But I’m back. I’m good.
I was saying it reminds me of the vagal nerve itself, and sort of how the nervous system works in that the same time --
Yeah.
-- you’re being exposed and experiencing that, you’re also practicing it and there’s sort of a double feedback going on.
That’s exactly what’s happening is that -- yeah. As we’re talking about stuff, yeah, we do. We drop down the ladder, which is we activate -- so, the vagal nerve, it’s a nerve, but it has different systems attached to it. So, the nerve goes from the bottom of your brain, all the way down to your gut. But along the path of this nerve, it connects to your safe and social system which is from your heart to your break to your face. And then it connects to your fight, flight system which is your limbs, like your legs and your arms. And then it connects to your shut down system, which is in your gut, and that just shuts everything down.
So in therapy, yeah, you’re activating these different systems. In therapy, in the moment, you’re going down into these different systems. Does that make sense?
Yes.
So yeah, you’re literally activating these different states, these different defensive states in therapy. But hopefully, again, you’re with that person that is able to give you those safe and social cues to help you come back up the ladder. And I think what happens in therapy that we really don’t want to rush these things I don’t think at all. And if we let people talk about what they’re ready to talk about and they go down the ladder, or actually kind of come up the ladder, I think, little by little by little -- especially for people who are more shut down, dissociative. It can be a very long process. It’s a very gentle process. We have to really take our time, because as the therapist, if we’re rushing people, that pressure is a danger cue. So, we’re actually keeping people in those defensive states of being flight, fight, or even shut down.
So, we really have to take our time and I just sort of trust that my client knows what’s best for them and what they’re ready for. As long as I’m providing a safe avenue or as long as I’m being a safe person, that their nervous system, they will get to where they need to be. And I just sort of trust that. And of course, I do my end of things and if I see they’re stuck, I’ll try and do some awareness kind of things or maybe we have to move a little bit. So, on my end, I’m pretty darn active as well.
I really have to trust that they know how much they can handle in the moment, and checking in with them in the moment - how are we doing? Just like I did with you, honestly. And I think that was more for myself. But checking in like, “How are we doing right now?” And that helps to bring a level of safety as I am in the moment. I’m not back then. I’m here. I am with Justin. I am with a safe person.
And so we’re activating these different states of the vagus nerve. We’re hitting on those, either coming up or coming down them, yeah.
And --
It’s interesting that with the vagus nerve -- if you’ve heard -- it’s really interesting. It’s actually a hierarchy that our safe and social system is at the top, and that the flight, fight response, which comes next is below that on the nerve and then below that is the shut down system. So, it really evolved in this sort of bottom up approach. It’s a product of evolution.
Is there anything else that a therapist, who’s just now learning about Polyvagal Theory, needs to know?
Honestly, I answered it as much as possible. I think that, yeah, that’s really as much as possible, because I’d given the basic, just the fundamental basics, which is a lot, I think. But as I learn about this stuff more and yeah, as I continue to learn about this stuff, it adds like a new wrinkle to what I’m learning. I feel more lightbulbs going off.
So, it’s not just like a one time thing. I don’t think it’s just I listen to the podcast, and you’re good to go. I think it’s -- like, I’m constantly, constantly still, right before you and I talked, I was reading an article with Stephen Pordes. I just -- it’s not -- I don’t think it’s a one time thing. We have to keep learning about it.
I think my podcast is a pretty good way to continue to get some more of education in it. But I look at it -- I’m secondary. Dr. Porges is -- he’s the primary source here. So, really look up him and he’s understandable. He’s very academic, and his book ‘The Polyvagal Theory’ is extremely academic. I couldn’t even finish it. I got 50 pages into it and I’m like, “I’m out. I’m done.” [Laughing]
[Laughing]
I promise I’ll come back and finish that book. That is a huge goal of mine. But he has -- his lectures are more digestible. He’s got some articles. He has some interviews. Apparently he’s pretty forgiving with his time which is awesome. I really recommend therapists, and not just therapists, but I’m hearing from massage therapists, occupational therapists, all kinds of people who are in helping professions, teachers.
If you get this, it’s understandable, great, but I would really encourage you to keep working. And also for yourself as well. It’s not enough to learn about what our clients are going through that we have to be aware of where we’re at. And I’ll use the example of when I was talking with you right now, that I went somewhere else. I went somewhere else, but my vagal brake is strong enough to be like, “Oh, where’d I go? Let’s come on back over here.” And daydreaming is kind of an aspect of that, but I kind of went somewhere else for a moment. And if I wasn’t aware of this stuff, if I wasn’t aware of what was happening to me in the moment and that I was really kind of in some sort of mild dissociative state for a moment there, then I could have easily gotten lost into that. And I know therapists are extremely empathetic. We feel what our clients are feeling, hopefully.
And if we don’t keep that in check, if we don’t stay attached to our safe and social system, we can easily get lost in to that stuff. But what happens is when we get lost into that stuff, now we start to provide danger cues - our face goes flat, the color from our face gets lost, our body posture changes. So, if you’ve heard this stuff and you get it, cool, awesome. That’s a great first step. But keep learning about it.
And for me this is now pretty much -- it is. It’s a daily practice of learning, and learning, and learning and really being aware of myself and how I feel throughout the day now. And I know that when I go to my kid’s gym class, I’m on overload there.
[Laughing]
Because there’s so many cues of danger.
Right.
There’s just like the music, and there’s people crossing in front of me. I have proximity issues. I’m a pretty big person so I have these proximity issues. And also sound, that gym class is so overwhelming. I know that when I’m there, I drop down a ladder and I want to get the heck out. I want to run away. So, I’m aware of that, which helps me to regulate breathing. I can be more aware of it. I can purposely make eye contact with my wife who comes and we’re together. Or I’ll look at my kids and smile. That helps me kind of come back up the ladder and remind my nervous system that I’m safe.
So, learning about it’s great, but we have to really be aware of ourselves in and out of session to make sure that we’re providing those safe and social cues for our clients. And if you can’t do that -- to me, that’s the fundamentals of therapy, is being a safe person. That’s where it starts. That’s where therapy starts.
Wow. Thank you so much.
You’re welcome.
Go ahead and tell us your website and podcast where people can learn more.
The website is justinlmft.com. The podcast is called Polyvagal Podcast. I’m on Twitter and Instagram. The handle is @justinlmft. Yeah, that’s the best places to reach me. I don’t have a LinkedIn. I don’t like Facebook. Those are the best places. I’m very responsive to DM’s or emails. I’m not overloaded so much that I can’t respond to people. So, feel free to reach out. The Polyvagal Podcast, again, is very safe. I do go into more depth with these concepts. I do so in a very safe way. There’s no sharing of stories because I know people are going to go there anyways. So, I don’t share any -- no clients, obviously no client stuff. But I don’t share any trauma stories. That’s just not a part of it, and I don’t think it needs to be, because I know people who go there anyways. I warn people ahead of time if I feel like it’s a safe episode or not. And I’ll kind of give like a I know this is pretty safe, but I don’t know where you’re at, so I can’t predict that for you. But for the most part, every episode has been very, very safe and easy to understand.
That’s amazing. Thank you for all that you’re doing.
You’re so welcome. And people are really grateful, like everyone, you’re so welcome. But I get so much out of this that it’s -- I just can’t not at this point. I just have to, and it’s so fulfilling on my end to know that some people are being helped by it. You know? So, I’m getting so much out of this. So, thank you so much for being a listener.
I appreciate it. I’ve listened to all of your episodes so far.
Oh, nice.
And I appreciate you speaking with us today.
You’re so welcome. I’ve looked at some of your stuff too - a few of them. And it’s really got me interested about DID. It’s really challenging me to be like, “How well do I know my stuff?” Man, there’s a big gap in my knowledge there. So, it’s gotten me so excited about learning more. So, thank you.
Oh, sure!
[Break]
Thank you for listening. Your support really helps us feel less alone while we sort through all of this and learn together. Maybe it will help you in some ways too. You can connect with us on Patreon. And join us for free in our new online community by going to our website at www.systemspeak.org. If there's anything we've learned in the last four years of this podcast, it's that connection brings healing. We look forward to connecting with you.