Transcript: Episode 287
287. Guest: Melissa Parker (MDMA)
Welcome to the System Speak podcast. If you would like to support our efforts at sharing our story, fighting stigma about Dissociative Identity Disorder, and educating the community and the world about trauma and dissociation, please go to our website at www.systemspeak.org, where there is a button for donations and you can offer a one time donation to support the podcast or become an ongoing subscriber. You can also support us on Patreon for early access to updates and what’s unfolding for us. Simply search for Emma Sunshaw on Patreon. We appreciate the support, the positive feedback, and you sharing our podcast with others. We are also super excited to announce the release of our new online community—a safe place for listeners to connect about the podcast. It feels like any other social media platform where you can share, respond, join groups, and even attend events with us, including the new monthly meetups that start this month. Go to our web page at www.systemspeak.org to join the community. We're excited to see you there.
[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
Our guest this week is Melissa Parker. Melissa is a licensed mental health counselor who enjoys working with children, adolescents and adults who live with the effects of complex trauma. She holds special interest in providing support and therapy to mental health professionals who have lived experience with mental health concerns and/or trauma, and in supporting individuals who seek to integrate profound spiritual experiences into daily life. In addition to her clinical work, Melissa draws on her experience as a clinical professional with PTSD and DID to provide anti-ableism training and consultation to therapists who are interested in deepening their work with clients who live with dissociation. Melissa is also a founding member of healing options for post traumatic experiences. Hope, an emergent nonprofit that will offer MDMA assisted psychotherapy to survivors of trauma. And that's what she's here to talk about today, per your request. So with our thanks to the listeners who asked the questions, and our thanks to Melissa, who we met through Healing Together, we welcome her now to talk to us about MDMA. And so we include a trigger warning that we will be talking about psychedelic psychotherapy. And she will be sharing her own story of lived experience, both with trauma and with MDMA. As always care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Welcome, Melissa Parker.
* Interview begins*
[Note: Interviewer is in bold. Interviewee is in standard font]
So my name is Melissa Parker. I am an LMHC, licensed mental health counselor. I live and work in Arlington, Massachusetts. I work at Center Psychotherapy, where I focus most of my work on working with folks who have a history of chronic abuse and chronic trauma. I'm also a survivor myself. I live with PTSD and DID and my life has been radically changed by my use of MDMA.
So I'm very curious about that. Two things that I want to ask you right away. And then you can talk about what, whatever direction we want to go. One thing is that, I'm excited to have met other therapists with DID. And I've referenced this, but I've not talked about it in detail just for protection of our group. But I'm so excited that you're on and that we can talk about it a little bit. And then also, just so you know, I actually get a lot of emails for the podcast, about psychedelics and different substances used therapeutically. And I know nothing about it. And so I'm very excited to have heard a little bit at the ISSTD conference, and then to have known that you understand some of this and can talk about it. So where do you want to start?
I'm glad to start with my personal experience of learning more about myself as a person with the DID system.
What was that journey like for you?
You know, it was as much as a, as much of a surprise as it was a revelation. I've always known that they were quite a few things about me that were different. In my experiences, I think that maybe a lot of other people experience life or themselves or other people. I was 33 when I had, when I kind of caught my breakthrough. Some people might call it a breakdown. And certainly some aspects of it were really distressing and really frightening. But there was also an element of this experience where I felt like I was finally getting to know myself. Where I was finally kind of coming home to myself.
Around that time I had some friends who were really into psychedelics, mostly recreationally. But there was some conversation about the healing value of using psychedelics. And I was intrigued. I had never really done much with psychedelics up until this point in my life, I think maybe in high school I ate some mushrooms. But never really had any profound experience with psychedelics. So I got some MDMA. And one thing that I noticed right off the bat, when the MDMA first started to come on, was that I finally felt like I could breathe. I finally felt relaxed enough in my body to truly breathe. Not just to take the, you know, oxygen into my body to stay alive, but to breathe in my surroundings, to breathe in myself, and to be present. I guess that was actually the second big shock was really just being present, enough to really look around and see the world as it was, and to experience myself. I didn't necessarily intend for my MDMA use to be therapeutic. But I was glad that it was so embracing, and wonderful.
I was newly diagnosed with DID. And I had a lot of different feelings about that. You know, on one level, being told I had DID was no big shock. I had always had, I guess, anomalous situations where I didn't always recognize myself, or people in my life, or places that I've been. I've always heard voices in my head. I have always had a different relationship to my body, maybe than is typical. So having had this framework, introduced to me, it was partly very reassuring. And it was partly frightening. What they call mental illness runs in my family, and I was frightened. I was also scared because as a teenager I spent two years of my life in psychiatric hospitals. And my prognosis wasn't great. And my insurance finally ran out and I was released. I was told that unless I took a lot of medication and just kind of sat back and watch the world go by, I probably would have a lot of mental health difficulties. So I was scared of this diagnosis of DID. Also, because the media portrayal of folks like us is really frightening.
So I think MDMA came into my life at just about the right time. I think it came exactly when I needed to. When I was rolling, I was able to just kind of sit back and be with myself and to look at everything I had experienced, and to feel other feelings that went along with that. But without any self-hate, without any disgust, and without fear. I felt a lot. I did quite a bit of MDMA for a while there. And I felt a lot. In these trips I felt grief, I felt sadness, I felt incredible pain. But I also felt a gentleness and an expansiveness that I've never in my life felt before. And that gentleness and that expansiveness gave me some hope that I had a future that I had a life on this planet, and that the next part of my life could be different than the beginning was.
That's an incredible shift from being told that you would have a very limited quality of life, to being able to not only embrace the possibility, but live a high functioning life in your own way that's meaningful to you.
Yeah, that's something that I thought would be out of reach. I remember on one trip in particular, I kind of peeked into a past scene of my life where I was 19 years old. And I was about to be discharged from a psychiatric hospital where I lived for about, I want to say seven or eight months, maybe nine. And my psychiatrist just sitting me down and saying, you know, your medication is very important. You must take these medications, you must, you know, live quietly. That didn't work out at all. But he must not expect too much from life, and you'll have a good life. And I just remember feeling so confused. And so heartsick. This was back in 1992 and 1993. And I had gone through, I don't even know how many mental health diagnoses over two year span. It seemed that nobody could agree as to what was wrong with me. But I guess the final verdict was that if I took enough meds and lived quietly, I had a shot at staying out of hospitals. So it was a huge shift to be sitting in--I think it was in my living room for that one—in my early 30s. And just have a good look at that. And just this really gentle but really outraged voice, just saying, “Woah, you know, that wasn't correct. That wasn't right. This isn't who you are.”
How did that feel, to sort of recognize that what they're presenting for me is not congruent with what I want for myself?
It was incredible. At the time I was being told this, I was a scared kid. I had been through a lot. And I had also gone through a lot of psychiatric abuse in the institutions that were extensively there to help me. So I was terrified. I was terrified to ask questions. I was terrified to push back. I just wanted to grab my things and leave.
From the perspective of being in my early 30s and sitting, I felt this incredible, almost avalanche of grief. Not just for myself, but for anybody else who sat in that chair and was spoken to about themselves in that way. It kind of came colliding down in a way that would have been incredibly and horrifically overwhelming if I didn't have MDMA in my system. And I was sitting there my 33 or so year old self. Look, looking back over that scene I felt kind of in awe that any of us, if you went through different types of abuses and adversity, could go on to have the life that we want and a life that was congruent to who we know ourselves to be, and who we know we can become.
What was that like for you finding other clinicians that also had DID? Like, I don't want to talk about group or disrespect group or put anything at risk there. But just your own experience of finding others who were also finding their way to higher functioning and a better quality of life.
Absolutely amazing. I don't want to be disrespectful of our group either. And bring too much here without permission. But I think I can safely say that I'm incredibly grateful to our group and to know the folks I'm getting to know. I am grateful to be able to have a space where I can bring all of me and where I can just look around, you know whether we're on zoom. And just look around and see other people. And these are amazing, strong, intelligent, creative, brave, downright hysterical, brilliant people. We like to laugh as a group. We have, we have a lot to laugh about. And that is just so beautiful to me. I had always hoped for this. And I didn't know if it would ever happen.
I think that for us, it's really been significant. I mean, I know sometimes we use humor to help pace things or, you know, to straight up avoid things. Sometimes it's just actual joy and actual connection, and that attunement, and having others who understand. And when you spoke earlier about the grief, I feel like that that is a huge piece of the common shared experience of those of us with lived experience that does not get talked about enough. I mean, we can find in almost any book, whether it's a clinical one, or like a book about trauma generally. And it may mention grief about that we can't undo the past, or we can't change what happened to us when we were little, or things like that, and how there's grief in that. Lots of things may address that. But there are a few things that address the grief of ruptures, or difficulties, or challenges, and the difficult aspects of treatment itself. And, so to have in the context of all of us still being in therapy ourselves, while also trying to work, and things like that, to have moments where it's not just grief, although we can share that grief with each other if we need to, but also connect on the good things. And, you know, sometimes the good things are just like, “Hey, I got out of bed and got dressed four times this week.” You know, like, I'm just teasing. But just as an example of, and people understanding what that means, and why that's a big deal. And, um, and then the humor or the laughter and having those moments where you're so well understood, when we have also had such heartbreak of not being understood.
And then just even cognitively, that's actually how we met was in group and we were sharing that we saw this session, we saw this session at conference about psychedelic psychotherapy and that people had asked about it on the podcast. And you said you could come talk about that. And that was such a gift. And I appreciate you coming on and your courage and sharing even who you are. That just that takes so much even if you are already out and that that's consistent with your life. It's still, it just, I think being forward in the process doesn't undo the courage that it takes to live that way. And so I just want to appreciate you.
And then how did you, beside your lived experience, how did you start learning how to use this clinically? Or what is helpful clinically? How did you get into that?
The short answer is through MDMA. In one of my trips—I want to say maybe a year or two and my use of MDMA—I had an experience that I can only describe as kind of sitting at the edge of the pit with my legs dangling over looking not just at my past, but at my future. And what I wanted to do with what I had. And for a while, at this point, I was, you know, hearing a voice that was telling me that I should find other people like me. That I should do something with the experiences that I had. Even though I'd rather not have these experiences, the fact is that I've had them. And there is no point in wasting them. And through my use of MDMA I learned self-compassion. And I learned how to see clearly. And I also learned how to kind of create what I call like my breadcrumb trail through my system for myself to communicate, to have some connectivity.
And at the time, I was working as a hairdresser, which I loved. But I also felt that my time in this career was coming to an end. And I wasn't sure what else to do. You know, on one hand, I felt that I already pushed my luck by going to hairdressing school and I was told this to sit home and take my disability check and watch the world go by. So I already felt like I was doing something daring by having a career. And I was full of self-doubt about going to college because really, I barely went to high school. I graduated high school in a psychiatric hospital where I was given a diploma just because I was there, not necessarily because I did any academic work. So I was really scared about going to school. I was scared about being judged. I was scared I'd find out I wasn't very smart. You know, all the things I was told about myself. But this voice in my head was persistent. And this feeling of connectivity was really strong.
So I looked at different schools and I found Goddard College, which is very much a self-directed kind of a choose-your-own-adventure type of school. And I figured if I could get through college anywhere, it would be there. So at 34, maybe 35, I started my BA. And at the time I was still using MDMA, not quite as much as I had been initially, but pretty much regularly. And I kept up the internal communication. I kept up this knowledge of the system that I had. We still weren't on great terms, but I could see where there was promise. So I spent four years learning about everything I was practically ever curious about. Except dissociation. I studied transpersonal psychology and herbalism and poetry and wildcrafting and flourishing and all that stuff. I learned a lot about who I was on a whole bunch of different levels. And a couple years in I decided that when I graduated, or just before graduation, I would apply to Lesley University in Cambridge because they had a very good and somewhat progressive program on trauma studies as a trauma studies concentration, and a master's in counseling psychology program. So I set my sights to go to Lesley, and to earn my master's degree there.
I feel like it reflects the shift from, “you're just not going to be able to do anything and need to accept that,” to empower yourself to see what your choices are, and what matters to you and how you can accomplish it and what that would look like.
Yeah, there was a lot of shifting going on. I think in the years when I was in my undergrad at Goddard, I got peripherally involved with like, I don’t know how you’d put it, a radical mental health collective in Northhampton, called the Freedom Center, where I learned a lot about psychology and psychiatry. I learned a lot about how trauma is treated, you know, through a more critical lens than I've ever had. How trauma was conceptualized by a lot of psychiatric professionals. And I started to get angry, you know? Cuz there I was at about 35, you know, fairly into my life. And I was just starting to really strongly consider that what I was told about myself was wrong. That, you know, I wasn't intellectually and emotionally and cognitively compromised. That I was capable of attaining a higher education. That I was obviously capable of having friends and chosen family who loves me. And so much of what I was told was based on the limitations of the people who thought they were helping me, not necessarily based on my limitations. So I got pretty mad. And I just went full steam ahead.
All the way through licensure.
Yeah, it wasn't easy. There were some pretty big obstacles in that process. You know, I was somebody who had never really done homework. So, you know, at Goddard, well, before Goddard I went to community college for a year. I had to learn how to do homework. I had to learn how to read not just for fun, but to get information in a more conscious way. I was working full time during all of this as a hairdresser. So it was a lot to balance. But then the more I learned about my capabilities, my abilities, the angrier I got. I was pretty mad. Because there I was, you know, in grad school. I was working 40 hours a week. I had a 25 hour week internship. And I was carrying three classes a semester. And I graduated with a 3.9, mostly just because my citation skills were terrible my first semester in grad school. But I mean, I was doing it, you know, everything was still happening. I wasn't getting stuck anywhere. I was maintaining a wonderful marriage with my wife and wonderful friendships with our friends. And, you know, the house got messy. But so what. You know. The papers kept coming. And I was able to rise to every challenge that came my way.
I think that that is a significant piece of the experience where it is harder than anything. Like it really is hard work. It's not that you just wake up one day, and oh, I've got magical skills and I can just check this off my list really quick. Like, it's hard, exhausting work to get through things like grad school or holding a job or working so many hours. But then at the same time, every challenge that we overcome, or everything that we get through really empowers us to somehow do more. Almost like the hard things are preparatory for more hard things.
Totally. And I think what's made this possible for me has been the fact that I have had these experiences on MDMA. That I was able to lay down these pathways and to see this future for myself. And not just to see it, but to truly feel it. To truly feel this is just as real as anything else. And to be able to see the things in myself that I was afraid to see. That made it possible to get out of bed in the morning. And maybe even hold really difficult memories holding really difficult thoughts, really difficult experiences. But being able to actually look them square in the eye, and get to know them and accept them and move with them. I don't know, what this would have looked like, if it would have looked like anything at all, if I hadn't had the experiences with MDMA that I have had. I don't know who I'd be or where I'd be. Honestly, I don't even know if I'd be alive. I wasn’t super attached to life for most of my 20s and my early 30s. I don't know if I would have seen what my possibilities were. And if I would have had enough self-compassion and self-love to stay with them, even when they got as hard as they got.
That's a big piece to stay. Well, since we're sharing your lived experience, not my lived experience, so now it's your podcast. [Laugher] Explain to listeners are brand new to this: What it is? And how to find someone to help them do it safely? Or what are the cautions? Or when is it okay, when is it not? Can you share some education about that a little bit with the listeners?
As much as I can. I haven't been using MDMA over for the past few years, I got a lot out of my experiences and I'm not opposed to using MDMA again in the future—possibly the very near future. I think one of the most important things about any powerful substance is knowing when to use it and how to use it. And also when to stop using it. There's an old saying, I think most human deadheads and hippies that when you get the message you should get off the phone. So I think one of the big things with MDMA is making sure that it feels right to do. It's a very powerful and also very underwhelming and subtle and kind substance and experience. As far as where to get it, I don't currently know. But I will say, to always go with your gut if you're considering using a substance and maybe a friend is suggesting it to you, really go with your gut and go with your knowing. I don't have any really wise advice for folks as to where to get it, or to how to know what to do and what not to do. But I think it's important to be in a place that feels as safe as possible. And if you're doing it with other people, to be around people who feel really safe. Preferably maybe somebody who's done it before. And if you're alone, to have somebody that you can call to talk to or for support if you need to.
It's not something that there's like an organized group of therapists where if someone wants to do this in a therapeutic context, that they can search for a safe person to do. It still underground.
Pretty much. I am aware that some practitioners are offering assisted psychotherapy in kind of an underground manner. I'm not sure exactly where they are, or how that works. I do also know that above ground, I believe MAPS is in their stage three clinical trials right now. And I think there's some optimism that this will be an approved prescription treatment by about 2023. I'm currently involved in an effort at Center Psychotherapy where I work where some colleagues and some friends are working towards creating a nonprofit that will provide, among other things, MDMA assisted psychotherapy for folks, regardless of cost. We're a few years off on this because, as you can imagine, establishing a nonprofit is huge. I've never done this before. None of us involved actually have. And our funding needs are kind of immense. But based on the experiences that I've had, that I just literally kind of stumbled into, I feel really strongly that this amazing therapy should be available to more people. And it shouldn't just be available to wealthy people who can afford it. Assisted psychotherapy costs, I think, somewhere around $8,000, which is incredibly prohibitive to many people, especially folks who need it the most. So part of what HOPE—which is our nonprofit: Healing Options for Post traumatic Experiences—is seeking to do is to gain enough funding and support to be able to train therapists to support MDMA assisted psychotherapy. And also to make the therapy accessible to people, especially folks from traditionally marginalized communities, folks without financial resources or access to this particular therapy,
Because when a treatment is that expensive, then sort of by default, it becomes a, it becomes an option for wealthier people of different class. Like, it becomes a privileged opportunity.
Absolutely. And as glad as I am to see MDMA assisted psychotherapy becoming a reality, I'm also really aware that it's not something I could afford. It certainly isn't something that most people I know could afford. It's not something that's accessible to the people who need it probably the most. As somebody coming from a very poor background, I can't, I can't engage with this particular work unless it's accessible. Unless it's something that people can have because they need it and they want it not because they can't afford it.
So for you, it becomes a social justice issue even.
Absolutely. I mean, I consider my work to be very much rooted in social justice. There's a lot of elitism in our field. There's a lot of cost. There's a lot of financial barriers to receiving decent psychotherapy, even just regular talk therapy, as somebody with DID. As somebody who has lived through chronic trauma, we go through a lot and our life circumstances don't typically allow us to spend two or $300 a session for psychotherapy. So this gets even more intense. When we look at MDMA assisted psychotherapy, we look at the price tag, we know that this therapy has the ability to shift somebody's relationship to their trauma, so much that they may not even qualify for a diagnosis of PTSD. I think it was in the 12 month follow up, the 12 month follow up findings from the phase two MAPS clinical trials, that a percentage I think it was after… No, I'm sorry, it was after two months, 56% of people no longer met diagnostic criteria for PTSD. And then about a year later of the people that they interviewed 67% of them did not qualify for a PTSD diagnosis. I mean, that's potentially life changing. And then if we can branch that out, to finding ways of using MDMA to work with folks with DID Systems, and all other different types of mental health concerns. This is pretty radical, but it's not radical if it's only available to wealthy people.
It's something completely foreign to me, I've had no experience with that at all. And for several reasons, I'm not going to be able to have that as an option for me. And I appreciate the information and your story of how it was helpful for you, and the inclusion of people who otherwise would not have access because that feels like a really big deal.
It absolutely is. I can't separate out the social justice aspect of my work from the clinical aspect. Especially as we see what's going on in our society, what's been going on, that's come to a head over the past four years or so. Where there's so much trauma in our daily life, in our daily society. Where BIPOC folks, where LGBTQ folks, where immigrants, or folks without money are constantly living in trauma.
It's one of the examples where, when there's trauma that just keeps happening, and trauma that's been happening and is still ongoing, it's not actually in the past. And often when we're talking about complex trauma, or OSDD, or DID, or one of those kinds of diagnoses, even PTSD, we make this assumption clinically, that we're talking about things that happened in the past. But with the social justice issues, the trauma is still happening right now.
It's happening constantly. Every time we turn on the news or social media, or look out the window or listen to the radio, if anyone still listens to the radio, there's trauma. That's become part of everything we do. And even if we weren't exposed to these things through media, they'd still be happening. You know, I remember one of the most insane things I think, I was probably about 18 and I had been dissociating. I was in the psychiatric hospital. And the way that the job was my dissociation was to put me in four point restraints and give me some drugs. And I remember waking up in a seclusion room, I don't know, how long after being put in restraints, and this whole horrible situation have been happening. And I just started screaming. You know, I just I saw myself once again strapped to a bed, and I started screaming, and a staff member came in. And I remember he said, “It's okay, you're safe, stop screaming.” And I just I stopped screaming and I started laughing.
So you don't know where you are. And you're handcuffed or restrained to a bed. And, Yeah, you're away from home, but he's cognitively telling you with words, “you're safe. So settle down.”
Yeah. I just, it was like one of those lightbulb moments. I didn't really get to spend time with that until later in life. But I remember just so clearly just looking at him and looking around this room with the scratches on the walls. And I'm in a four point restraint. And there's like this mesh over the only small window on the room, and I hear the noise from the unit that was just a couple doors away. And nothing was safe. Nothing was okay. It just seems insane to me that somebody would even say that.
What would you want to share with other clinicians?
So much. I think in regard to psychedelics, I would like to encourage folks to do some research. I know there's a lot of concern over using psychedelics therapeutically. I know that MDMA is considered to be a party drug. It's considered to be something that can be really harmful. And I suppose you know, just like water, water can be harmful. It depends how it's used. MDMA, I think, when used thoughtfully, when used well—you know, even psilocybin and LSD, there's so many--there's so much potential in these substances that we were previously unaware of, that they're worth considering. If we can consider it okay to give a traumatized teenager a buttload of Haldol to shut her up, I think we should also consider something like MDMA to open her up in good ways. I think if we consider lifetime of Prozac to be medically sound, we should also consider a few go rounds with MDMA to be just as sound. So I would like to encourage other clinical professionals to do their own research and come to their own conclusions about this, even if they're not in total alignment with assisted psychotherapy, to maybe be open that it's as valid as anything else.
And I think about DID. You know, I mean, the first thing, of course, obviously, is don't believe what you see on your television. Don't believe the horror movies. You know, we're actually pretty incredible people. We've found ways to do really well, to grow, and still keep ourselves. Which is really incredible. You know, we're not disabled. We're not unable to do things. And we're not tricks.
That's powerful. Thank you for that part, for that reminder of contextualizing instead of pathologizing. And remembering once again that those trauma responses are in response to what happened to us and not what is wrong with us.
Yeah. I look back at my own life, and I think okay, so I have DID because of experiences I've had absorbing other people's sickness and rage and anger and pain. And then I was placed in the hospital supposed to be to be helped. But overall, I feel like, you know, I was really harmed because of the fear and the ignorance of helping professionals. And then I've had experiences as an adult in therapy where I feel like, you know, the trauma continued. Not out of any malice on anybody's part. But because of triggering, maybe, you know, other folks unhealed trauma. It's difficult.
It's so much. It's so much. I am grateful for you sharing with us. Is there anything else that you wanted to share before I let you go? I want to respect your time.
No. I think we've had a great conversation. Thank you so much for having me.
I am so grateful, I really am. And I appreciate you. And you're sharing your experience. When I started getting these emails, and I'm not even sure what triggered the emails because they just started coming last year. So I don't know if it was in response to the overwhelm of the pandemic or something specific happen culturally that I just didn't know about. But for whatever reason, I started getting emails that I really couldn't speak to, because I didn't know and I couldn't. It's not something I could pretend. You know, like, I really could not speak to that. And so I really appreciate you sharing your story. And it's an important piece. I know that sometimes on the podcast, like because it's my experience, it's our experience. And we have different guests and things. But if I don't, like, find people who are willing to come on, there's so many different areas that even on the podcast, we can't really discuss or explore, because I don't know. I'm just limited to my own experience. And so I really appreciate you coming on for a conversation.
Thank you for that so much. I'm glad that people are talking about this and asking about this. Yeah. It's so important. These are conversations we need to have. Okay, thank you so much. You're welcome. I'll see you later. Bye.
[Break]
Thank you for listening. Your support really helps us feel less alone while we sort through all of this and learn together. Maybe it will help you in some ways too. You can connect with us on Patreon. And join us for free in our new online community by going to our website at www.systemspeak.org. If there's anything we've learned in the last four years of this podcast, it's that connection brings healing. We look forward to connecting with you.