Transcript: Episode 36
36. The Husband Goes to Therapy
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
Hi, this is Sasha and I have so many things to tell you. We had therapy today and it was crazy awesome, except also terrifying. And I don’t get it. How that is or why that is is making me crazy. I can almost grasp it and almost hold onto it and then it just slips away and I can’t hang onto it, because my therapist is awesome and my therapist is legit and she’s super cool. She doesn’t let me get away with crap, which I guess is helpful but also annoying, except good for me and as she said today - uncomfortable.
So yes, therapy is super uncomfortable, but it was really good, you guys. It was really good. I even brought the husband and the children with me this time so that we could talk about other things. [Laughs]
Also, things have been getting really intense with what’s happening inside and so I really needed just a stall week. I couldn’t cancel therapy, because I don’t want to skip therapy and also I know that all of us really need to see her, like physically see her that she’s still there and still real. But, I needed to come up for air.
So, the husband was like wait, are you using me as a shield? And I was like yes, yes I am. [Laughs] So, you need to come with me to therapy.
But, here’s what was good. I guess there’s someone...I don’t know who, I need to figure that out...but there’s someone who talks to him about therapy and what she’s learning from therapy. They have a going list of things to talk about next time he goes with us, because he goes with us every once in a while and so it was just kind of a good time for him to go anyway, like legit, because they had a pretty long list of things to talk about.
So, that worked out super well in my favor, because it was a good time to bring him anyway, but also let things settle down inside a bit before we do more therapy, because things are changing so fast. The walls are coming down, guys. And it’s terrifying me. It’s so scary and also there are things I’m learning that I don’t know that I want to know. It’s just so intense, but I know that it’s good.
So, I don’t know. It’s just hard. Therapy’s so hard. I don’t mean she’s bad. She’s good. We finally have a good therapist. I get that, but it’s just really hard. So, I was glad he was there today, except also...here’s the thing, for the first time, I totally got called out. I got busted, that I was not who he thought I was or they figured out that it was me, Sasha. And so I officially met the therapist and told her it was me for the first time and talked about some things for the first time.
I wasn’t the only one there, but I did get most of the session and also part of it was so fuzzy and blurry because there was so many people listening. This whole stuff of all the changes inside and how to listen to the therapist when she’s talking and changing the Christmas lights and the color of pay attention, because the therapist is here...guys, it’s working. It’s working because there were like 800 people...not really...oh my goodness, could you imagine? So, not really. But there were so many people listening it was hard to even see straight.
It was like the whole room almost went dark except I could still hear her and the husband, but there was...like, I wasn’t alone. It was so creepy and weird. There were 100 of us in that room. Again, not really 100, but you know what I mean?
So, anyway, the husband came...he brought this list, which I was not thrilled about what was on the list. But, I guess it was good and it ended up in some really good discussion. But then after therapy we took the kids to the park and while the children were playing the husband and I talked about therapy a little bit, except I still was not completely present. So, it was really hard to stay focused and together, but I tried.
So, anyway, here’s what I want to share from parts...not all of it obviously, but parts of what I wanted to share from the conversation with the husband. Here are the highlights. Some is what we talked about with the therapist, some of what was on the list, and one of the big things for me was I also talked with the therapist directly...not really, the husband brought it up, it was on his list. [Laughs] But, I pretended I did. I guess that was helpful, because it was too scary for me to do by myself.
But we talked about the podcast and she’s only listened to the one episode that Dr. E sent directly, because she doesn’t go anywhere uninvited. And so she was invited to listen to that episode, but she did not listen to all the others even though she has the link. How crazy is that? Safe...off the chart...respectful. So, she totally earned my respect with that, except also it’s just okay if she listens to it. So, I told her she could, but she also said she wasn’t firing me because of the podcast or because of anything else. So, it was a huge moment for me - really intense, really hard to believe, and a lot to soak in and process.
Which is why we talked about it again at the park after therapy and why I wanted to talk about it on the podcast, because I need to listen to this over and over and over until I can get it sunk into my head that this is really okay. That maybe she’s sticking around and the husband is staying too. So, it’s a lot to learn. It’s hard to remember, but I think everything is okay, you guys. It’s the most okay and peaceful and safe and calm and good and peaceful...like, I don’t even have the right words for it. It’s the best things have felt since before everything happened around the holiday’s and with family services and all those other things that happened. Maybe the best we have felt since starting the podcast.
So, it was good for me and I want to share what the husband and I talked about or parts of it so that we can listen to it again so that others, especially Emma, can hear what’s going on and what we talked about and maybe it will sink through through that the husband and the therapist are both really here to stay. And maybe we are finally safe and maybe everything really is okay. Maybe.
Here’s a conversation with the husband.
***Interview starts***
Podcast Host - Bold font
The Husband - Standard font
Okay, say hi.
Hello.
We are back with the husband because we just had therapy today and I got outed. I mean, I talked to the therapist. [Laughs]
[Laughs]
And we talked about the podcast and she doesn’t hate us and she’s not firing us, right? Is that true?
Yup, that is absolutely true.
There’s a lot.
We talked about a lot.
What did she say about confronting truths or something like that? Congruence?
Oh yeah, congruence. Sometimes your emotions are linked back to memory time and they’ll tell you that you’re feeling scared, but that feeling is not congruent with the evidence that you have around you.
So, looking for the evidence of what is true?
Yes.
So I can feel like she’s going to fire me or she doesn’t want to talk to us or that you don’t really love us, but that’s not what’s true.
Yeah, you don’t have any evidence for that. All you have is evidence that we both care about you a lot.
Because the memory time is that no one stayed.
Yes.
And that everybody was dangerous.
Yes.
Or it feels like that. I know everybody’s probably a big word, but it feels like there was so little that was safe, so nothing else could be safe either. But that’s memory time feelings.
Yes.
Invading the present? Is that a good word? Like, invading?
Yeah.
But in now time it is safe and the evidence shows that it’s safe. So, someone trying to be my friend now, that is a safe person, it’s okay that they’re a safe person. Ugh, that’s a big piece. I can’t even process just that piece. Go ahead.
She also said your feelings are like ocean waves lapping at your feet on the beach. That it feels like a thing that’s just happening now, but it started miles and miles out at sea. Each of those things works together to create that emotional response.
So like everything that happened?
Everything that’s happened is involved in giving you those emotional responses.
So, it feels like it’s the present, but it’s not really the present. And here was something that was cool that actually helped me a lot. She said that’s true for everybody, not just for DID.
Absolutely.
And so even she has times where she needs reassurance or you have times where you need reassurance and it’s okay to check in and to just say that to get that...is it congruence? Is that the word she said?
Mmhmm.
To remember now time is safe or even that you are safe or even that I guess, ultimately that I am safe. Yeah.
Yeah. I can give you an example of what you were just talking about. There was a time not long ago where I was doing something work-related at home, and I suddenly was on the verge of a panic attack and crying that touched on to some past experiences that were really traumatic for me, even though the current situation was not a threat in any way. But it tied me back to those other moments.
And you don’t have DID.
And I don’t have DID.
Wait, so part of it’s just about being human?
Oh yes.
And so it’s just basically turns out it’s okay to just be human.
Yeah.
What?
Emotions are hard for all humans.
She said she’s not leaving.
That’s true.
And that she’s still going to keep working with us.
Yes.
Even though she knows about the podcast.
Mmhmm.
She listened to one podcast.
Yes.
Which podcast?
I think the one from the conference and she said that’s the only one she listened to, because you hadn’t given her permission to listen to anymore.
Because she doesn’t go anywhere uninvited.
Yes. So, like a vampire that way.
Oh my goodness. You just said that.
[Laughs]
Our therapist is not a vampire. Oh my goodness. You just said that. She does not go anywhere uninvited, which makes her awesome.
Yes, she is awesome.
Different than a vampire.
Depends on the kind of vampire you’re talking about.
Oh my goodness. What is with you and vampires? Where did this come from? [Laughs]
Sorry. My instructions are never to tell jokes. I will stop.
[Laughs] I feel like a lot happened in therapy. How do you guys do that? You had a list.
Yes, for the past couple months whenever a challenging topic came up or a question up, you would say put that on the list so that we could talk about it together with your therapist. And so we had a lot of things to talk about and a lot of things that today you said, no, don’t talk about it.
Let’s just not talk in therapy at all.
You just want to do interpretive dance?
[Laughs] No.
So there were some things that we did not talk about today, but I did read the whole list.
Because we have to go back through them.
Yeah.
Because the therapist can help?
Yes.
Why is it hard? If it’s...I know if you just talk to me just about her, I know she’s super cool. I know she’s super smart. I know that she’s helping. Not just like, oh, she’s helpful in general and not just like she’s gentle or safe. I know she’s helpful. Like actively, it is helping. I get that it’s good. But I get there and I freeze. Why is it so hard just to even get started?
I think it is because DID at its heart is a system of self-protection.
[Gasps]
And when you go to the therapist, you are making yourself vulnerable and that feels dangerous.
Yes, it does! Thank you for that.
You’re welcome.
But it’s very unpleasant.
Yeah. But that’s another thing where it’s the evidence that you have is that you always come away from those meetings feeling much better.
Ohh!
But the feelings that you have before you go in are like those ripples of all of the other times you’ve had people in your life or even therapists who have been unhealthy or have betrayed you or have hurt you. So, it’s not just now time that you’re feeling. You’re feeling the ripples from all of the other things.
That thing just happened. I know you were talking and I know you were saying words.
And you just heard gobbledegook.
But it did not make any sense to me. I don’t know what that is. That’s a thing though. But now that we’ve talked about it in therapy, I’m noticing it more when it happens and that’s a time where it just happened. But like I was aware you were talking, but none of it went to my brain.
The walls of your labyrinth were shifting.
[Laughs] I’m not trying to be disrespectful. I’m really not.
I know.
I don’t mean to not listen to you or…
I’m telling you, DID is a system of self-protection. And if I’m saying something you feel like you’re not safe hearing, then your system protects you.
That’s crazy. Oh! That was the other thing she talked about - was that adults have trauma too.
Oh, yes.
That not just the little brats that had trauma.
She also said not to call them brats.
Oh, blast.
She also talked about how all of you have different needs and that a podcast may be exactly what one of you needs, but another one has no use for that. But that doesn’t mean that the podcast itself is useless. It means that each of you needs to be able to find fulfillment in the way that suits them.
Hm… So some of us use the notebook. Some of us use the podcast. Some of us use both. Some of us don’t use any of that.
Yeah.
Oh, she said that the texting’s okay too and not to stop them - not to keep them from texting her.
Right.
I think part of it is like I’m afraid of using her up. If I go so far as to say she’s legit and so far as to say they are legit and to truly try to step out in the Indiana Jones leap of faith, like take that step into the cavern and hope there’s a road underneath me, then the next thing means I have to walk across it. I think that’s part of why it’s hard. That means that everything else is real too.
And here’s something about the texting that stood out to me. She was telling you that you can trust her. She’s never going to change her mind. She’s with you always and then you immediately said I wish they would stop texting you. And I think it was because you still think that she will only like you as long as you don’t mess it up.
Oh, yes! Or if they do stuff like texting her, then they’ll use her up and then she’ll change her mind.
Yes.
I mean, I know she’s got good boundaries and really mostly we have good boundaries...mostly...I don’t know. And I think we’re careful of it, because we know what it’s like with Dr. E. when people abuse that privilege, so to speak. Which is part of trust building - is respecting the boundaries. She has good boundaries about it and we get that because of our own experience of being on the other side of it. But I think my fear in that is exactly what you just said. We will use her up or that we will say something that finally is the wrong thing and then she changes her mind.
Your therapist seems healthy enough and to have good enough boundaries that if you were to get to the point where she needed you to stop sending messages, I believe she would tell you.
She said...yeah.
Yes.
Also she said one time before that it doesn’t seem to be...like when we text her, it’s not a conversation. When we text her it’s not like for a half hour. It’s a text.
Yeah.
And she responds when she can - not necessarily right way. But she does respond. But usually when she responds it’s either with such reassurance that we don’t need to text more until we see her again or it’s such a truth bomb that we don’t want to text more. [Laughs]
[Laughs]
Until we can see her and talk to her about it anyway. Or it just takes that long time to process.
You know what it makes me think of? When we’ve had toddlers and they get to that stage where they wander off, do something, and then they have to come back just to make eye contact and then they wander off again and then they come back to just touch you and make sure you’re still there and they wander off and then they come back. It’s like learning attachment and permanency somehow.
What?! Are you saying I’m a toddler in therapy?
Yes. Yes, I am.
I think we have a toddler, but I can’t send a toddler to therapy.
Why not?
That would be so embarrassing.
All of us have an inner toddler.
What? You don’t have an inner toddler.
I do.
What?
Yes.
What do you mean?
Mine just all sloshes around together. I don’t have it articulated with little walls.
You don’t lose time?
I don’t lose time, that’s true.
When we leave therapy, one of the things that happens besides needing to sleep for 20 hours is it’s not like dominos or maybe like the ocean waves she said or something where the same thing has to keep getting replayed and it soaks in further and further and further and further.
Mmm. Well, right then I was thinking how we also watch What Dreams May Come, but that’s not a very helpful observation.
Oh, that’s funny. No, it’s something we did not talk about it with the therapist.
We did not talk about it with the therapist, not that one, no.
I think it just wasn’t on the list so we didn’t think of it, but we can definitely talk about it on the podcast because it’s follow up from group. In group we got the assignment to watch the movie...what’s it called?
What Dreams May Come.
What Dreams May Come - which is actually a pretty bleak movie.
It’s not a very enjoyable movie.
But the thing that’s cool is that the power you have to create your own perception in your own internal world, which is why it was assigned in group. So, for the purpose that we have it, it was a really important movie to watch, but for the purpose of enjoying date night, it was a fail.
[Laughs] It was not a very cheery date night.
[Laughs] It was super depressing and super said. But it was good about creating our internal world. Oh, we did talk about that though. Something about safety. Something about...I know we’re talking about the bus stop and that it’s not time to move people around and we’re just working on getting them to the attic and getting safety. But she said something about it was important to know about the other house and what happened there. Something. Ugh, what did she say? All I heard was the word safety.
She said she was glad that one of you had raised an objection about it, because that way she knows it is maybe not the safe option and that they’ll need another plan. But …
So communicating with her is important and communicating with you is important? The same as communicating inside is important.
Yes.
The magic list. Why was that so scary? When we got to help decide what went on the list, it was still scary when you brought it up.
I think because when we wrote it down, you were not in the therapy context, which can sometimes be a trigger for you to feel vulnerable and unsafe.
But you were there with us. And I like her.
Oh yes.
It’s not that I don’t like her.
No, that’s not it at all. Of course.
But we’re okay.
Mmhmm.
I’m asking for reassurance.
Yes, we are okay.
[Laughs]
I still love you and all evidence I am giving you supports that statement.
Even though we’re all of these months or years into DID and dealing with it?
Yeah.
And trauma. There’s trauma everywhere.
Yes, yes there is.
That was the other thing we talked about - was medical trauma because of the kids. Or even trauma just because of having kids. Why are kids traumatic? [Laughs]
Well when one of you was saying that one of the others of you didn’t have any trauma at all, all she’s done is raise foster kids and adopt these other kids and take one child to the hospital for three months. [Laughs] Like listed all of these traumatic things.
It sounds kind of traumatic when you say it like that.
Yeah.
Because it was hard to live through?
Yeah. I think that I’m pretty sure what trauma is. [Laughs] Something that’s hard to live through.
I thought it was just...what?
Something that’s hard to live through that sticks with you as kind of a lingering moment of the present, even after it’s just memory time.
Oh. See, I thought trauma was something someone did to you and I know we can’t blame the kids for being traumatized by fostering or blame the baby for being born sick and trying to die all of the time.
I think the word gets a little muddied because I think trauma really means your experience of those things that happened to you and sometimes use it also to refer it to like inflicting trauma. But…
Oh, so like when there’s abuse or an abuser directly, that is trauma that they’re inflicting.
Yes.
But the experience of what’s happening…
That is…
That is traumatic.
Yeah, that is. Trauma is the thing they are holding onto in themselves.
So, fostering can count as traumatic.
Yes, absolutely.
It was so hard.
Yeah. It’s also traumatic for the children being ripped away from their parents and living with us. [Laughs]
[Laughs] And the baby being sick has been traumatic too.
Yes.
So like life-flights.
Mmhmm.
I think the trigger was being stuck in a hospital room when we were in the NICU for like three months.
Yeah.
And just being stuck there and a thousand miles from home without you.
Yes.
And we didn’t know it was going to be so long so we didn’t know when we were going to get home. When I describe it like that, then I’m like, oh yeah, that’s a lot of triggers.
Yeah.
That feel very parallel to some childhood experiences. But even in and of itself was hard.
Yes.
And then things like having to resuscitate her or following ambulances or things like that.
Mmhmm. Yeah.
Okay. So that counts as trauma?
Absolutely.
Do you have trauma?
Yes.
From being married to us?
No.
Oh. From the children?
Um...not exactly. There have been experiences of during the time of parenting that have been kind of traumatic.
Diapers. [Laughs]
No. No. That’s not traumatic. But there was a time where we were watching a video you had made of the youngest and her early days and her medical situation and it was really, really hard to watch in a way that made me realize I was still kind of reliving those moments. And that’s kind of my understanding of how to recognize a trauma-moment. It’s one of those past time things that still feel present.
Do we need to go or arrange...sometime, I know not right now...we just left therapy. But sometime, when it’s time for you to check in with the therapist again, do we need to specifically have the one who’s the mom, she doesn’t have her name on the podcast yet, but have her and you go? Instead of having a list, but going specifically to talk about that?
It’s probably not a bad idea. It’s probably not a bad idea.
Because what you just shared feels significant and if we’re having nightmares about extubation and some of those moments too.
Yeah.
I thought that trauma were just bad things that happened a long time ago that I didn’t remember and don’t want to remember. I didn’t think about disrupted relationships with friends or therapists as counting as trauma. Or some of the hard things we’ve been through together counting as trauma.
Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
What about our miscarriages?
Yes.
That counts as trauma?
Yes.
What about when you were in Hurricane Sandy?
While you were having a miscarriage? Yes.
[Laughs]
[Laughs]
So when we make that list of here are all of the things that happened to us in our first year like the dead parents...all that counts as trauma?
Yes.
Oh, we talked about her killing her mom.
Losing...yes. One of you thinks that she’s responsible for killing her mom.
Well, she is. Right?
No.
[Laughs] But that counts as trauma because she thinks it or because it happened.
Losing your mom was a trauma and…
I mean… go ahead.
No, go. You.
Well, I just want to say that I’m really glad that we didn’t lose you.
Yes.
Because those were really hard days.
Yeah, they were.
Months.
Mmhmm.
Years.
Yes.
[Laughs] It was bad.
It was very hard.
I mean, not like bad between us, because you’re so good and kind and because we consciously chose you, but it was hard and scary in that I really thought for a minute we might disappear altogether.
I’m really glad you didn’t.
I’m really glad you stayed. So here, as an official interviewee on the podcast Mr…
Husband.
...Husband, thank you. I almost said your name. [Laughs] Mr. Husband.
Yes, Mrs. Wife.
[Laughs] How would you describe today...our redefinition of trauma...of what you just taught me and what we talked about in therapy today? How would you define trauma now?
I don’t know if my understanding is the good understanding or the correct understanding. So, I’m scared to…
Well, no, just from what we talked about just now. Like how you put all of that together.
My understanding is that trauma comes from extreme emotional situations of loss or physical pain or fear, exposure to death in some form, or risk of death, whether you or another person, loss of relationships. All of those things and I think what constitutes a trauma is different for each person, but those things are so difficult to process that they stick kind of like a lump. They don’t just go in smoothly with the rest of your emotional history. And those little lumps of memory time sort of get hiccuped up. They pop up and it feels like you’re living them again.
There are memories that I have that I know are memories, even happy memories or sad memories or whatever. And then there are moments that when I think of them, it’s like I’m back there again, even though I know I’m consciously not. The emotions of that moment are just as present as that moment when they happened. And those are usually the trauma moments.
So, if that’s what trauma is and what makes it so hard, then what makes it better? How do we make it better?
By giving yourself...this is something your therapist talked about today.
Oh man.
By giving those other selves the things they need to feel safe and happy. When I was doing therapy, I shared an experience from my childhood, not as horrific as some of the experiences that you’ve had…
But you can’t compare, right?
Right. You can’t compare. It was to me an experience that had haunted me ever since my childhood and my therapist said, “Well, who stood up for you? Who got mad at those other people who did that?” And I said, “Well, nobody. I didn’t tell anyone that it’d happened.” And she said, “You know what you can do it. You can step into that memory, yell at those other kids, comfort yourself and make sure that you are okay.”
And I did that, in my imagination, the next time I had that sort of flare up. I got to be the grown up in that memory and make sure that I was okay. And you know what? That memory lost its pain. I can still remember it and I’m sure it still affects me from time to time, but it was never as raw and present after that. Now it’s just part of who I am as opposed to something that overwhelms me.
Like in Labyrinth? “You have no power over me.”
Exactly like in Labyrinth.
So that’s why we have to talk to each other to find out what we need and how to help them?
Yeah.
Like Molly with the kids?
Yes! And that’s also why when one of you is…
Disrespectful.
...disrespectful, thank you, towards another one, I think it’s self-sabotaging because you will ultimately find the most happiness and peace when all of you are getting the help and the respect that you need.
Some of you have very simple needs. Some of you don’t even need to come outside to meet your needs. You have ways to play and create inside. Some of you have a lot of things you want to do on the outside and you’re developing and growing as people. And so that requires more outside time, it requires more opportunities that you have to really coordinate with other people. And all of you need respect and love. I struggle to love myself. I don’t have DID. It’s something, again, that’s just a human thing. You have to love all the Parts of yourself.
Why does the therapist care? She’s listening to the podcast - that’s time. She’s reading the notebooks - that’s time. She sees us every week so she’s stuck with us for two hours and we only pay for one of them.
Because she sees your worth as a human being.
Wait, what?
She sees your worth as a human being and she loves you for who you are. The same way I recognized you when I met you. I felt like I had known you forever.
You know what I love about how we met? Is that even though we didn’t have words to talk about DID directly…
Mmhmm.
...like we didn’t have the name of that or a therapist helping us at that time, you developed a relationship with so many of us. I mean, even when you proposed to us, you gave us a little toy monkey out of the machines at the restaurant.
That’s true. Our proposal had several different steps to interact with several different people I guess.
So, that was meaningful though. I think that was part of why we were able to commit to that even though it was so scary and different than before, because we’d never gone that far before.
Yeah.
Much less actual committing or believing. And we even tried to warn you away of like here’s everything that’s wrong with us or a broad description of everything wrong we’ve ever done or has happened to us, just so that you already know, we are already too ruined for you to choose us.
I believe that was our first phone conversation.
[Laughs] So much for good boundaries. Except it felt important that you know up front that this is what you’re getting into. We got to that dating point of we can’t go further into this if you don’t know these things, because here’s a list of all the reasons I think you will not stay.
*Gasp* You stayed from the beginning. You already chose to stay.
Yeah.
What did the therapist say about gifts? About she staying? I said something about it’s not all good, not all of what we have to say is as cute as John Mark or as funny as John Mark. He’s going to be mad I said cute. [Laughs] But, you know what I mean? Some of it’s ugly and dark and awful and she’s like, “That’s cool.” I mean, that’s not what she said, but…
Oh. Each of those truth’s that you give to her, each of those things that you share that you’ve been protecting for so long is a kind of gift and she considers them precious.
But they don’t make her hate us.
No.
Those things don’t make her go away.
No.
I feel like there’s something huge there in a way beyond what I can comprehend or understand. That the worst things that we have to tell her or the hardest things or the darkest things, the ugliest things or however you want to phrase it, that those things are not so bad or ugly or awful that they make her go away.
That’s how I feel too.
And I feel like that is the piece that we have not ever understood before and that is a piece that has not always been true in the past.
Yes.
I don’t mean with you or with her, but I mean with other people or other therapists, where there was this threshold of now you are officially too much or not your story is officially too hard. Or even our friends who...well, not friends, because I’m terrible at having friends. But I mean people in our life who are aware of our family and know the things that we’ve been through since we got married are like you guys have been through so much and that doesn’t even count before.
[Laughs] It’s true.
Right? So, what you and she are both saying...ooh, like the law of two witnesses.
Mmhmm.
What you two are both saying is that that’s not actually a thing. Although in now time, the evidence...that’s a memory thing, a memory feeling. The evidence is that you two are staying anyway.
Yeah.
Oh, snorkels.
Yeah, we’ve already gone through a lot of hard stuff and then here I still am, right?
High-five for you buddy.
I just listened to that podcast recently where a woman experienced some medical trauma and her boyfriend, who she thought she was going to marry, immediately dumped her. There are people out there who are like that. You have experienced people like that, who don’t have real connections and bonds.
Wait, that’s what she was saying about I’ve already given her pieces. You and she both already know enough, that if you were going to leave, you already would have.
It’s true.
Woah.
If you were to share with us your darkest, most guarded, most shame-filled secret, we would still love you just as much as we do right now. I don’t expect that’s going to happen anytime soon, because you’ve built up a whole system to protect it.
Well, I did today, because that is my deepest...for me personally...just me, my deepest shame to say out loud is that I have been through too much and it’s too bad and I am...I am too bad to be kept or loved or chosen in a good way for the hope and help that you are both offering to be real. Not because you two are failing me, but because I am not worth that or have already been condemned to not have that.
Mm.
I don’t know how to say that better. I’m not very good at saying it out loud.
But I can say you are worth that and it is not something you can earn.
*Gasp*
You are worth that just because you are you. It’s independent of anything you do.
Which means it just is.
It just is.
But if it just is then I can’t mess it up.
It’s true.
Which makes it real after all.
Mmhmm.
Oh. Okay. I love you.
I love you.
Aww.
Okay, but before we finish this episode or before we finish recording this, you have to tell the story about what you and the therapist said at the end about John Mark.
So the therapist was talking about all of the stuff that’s going on inside right now. You were saying it felt like so much was changing and she said, “Yes, there’s a lot happening. There are people cleaning and sweeping and putting up lights and painting and making it all clean and nice.” And I through out having dance parties up in the attic. And suddenly I had the idea...I had this image in my head of John Mark DJing the dance party and…
[Laughs]
...the therapist said, “He would totally be called ‘J Mark - the DJ.’” So now I have this image of him up there playing tunes.
[Laughs]
Having a little dance party. Working the turntable.
Thank you for that. I will make sure that you know when music is blasting in my head because he now has another new job.
[Laughs] He’s busy.
[Laughs]
[Break]
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