Transcript: Episode 222
222. Guest: Jill Hosey
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
*Conversation begins*
[Note: Podcast host is in bold. Podcast guest is in standard font]
Jillian Hosey is a clinical social worker and trauma therapist in a collaborative private practice in Toronto, Canada, providing trauma therapy to children, youth and adults who are struggling with experiences of trauma, PTSD and complex PTSD, attachment and developmental trauma, and dissociative disorders. She is an integrative EMDR therapist, incorporating various treatment modalities into eye movement desensitization and reprocessing therapy including sensorimotor psychotherapy, havening, deep brain reorienting, polyvagal theory, and various theories of dissociation and parts work, and ego state modalities. Jillian is a certified EMDR therapist and EMDRIA-approved consultant, and places value on the mind-body connection and holistic approach to healing, tailoring therapeutic work to the client and their unique needs and experiences. In addition to her clinical work, Jillian is a facilitator with the AGATE Institute and Ana Gómez Attachment Trauma Education Institute, and faculty with the professional training program with the ISSTD International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation. She has presented on integrating the Safe and Sound Protocol into EMDR therapy at the Child and Adolescent Complex Trauma Conference in 2019, and the SSP gathering with Dr. Stephen Porges in 2019. She is a founding partner of the Healing Therapy Alliance and Psychosomatic Trauma Initiative in Toronto, which are collectives of integrative psychotherapist, wellness therapists and addiction counselors that provide a collaborative team-based approach to healing and is grounded in neuroscience and trauma-specific evidence informed practices.
Welcome our friend Jill.
*interview begins*
[Note: Interviewer in bold. Interviewee in standard font]
Hello, can you hear me? I can. Can you hear me? Yay! We finally connected. [Laughter]
I wanted to check in with you around, you know, what would be the most helpful for your, for listeners to get out of this?
I really think what is most helpful for listeners to get out of this-. Now you're interviewing me. [Laughter] What I'm excited about to talk to you is not just sort of the work that you do, but also, specifically, what I love about you personally and professionally is your level of authenticity. And I think just you being on will be healing to people who listen. And it is like, sometimes the podcast is like, like monkey bars. Like, people are just holding on from one hope to the next. And you are a significant piece of that process.
Okay, thank you for sharing that. Okay, I can do that. I can do that. I can just show up.
Yeah. I appreciate it. It's really very kind of you. You are doing a good thing. And there's nothing that, I don't have any kind of agenda at all. And I don't think there's anything that you could misspeak or not be qualified to share.
Thank you for letting me know. So I will just let things unfold. And that works for me. And I feel really honored and really privileged to be invited. So thank you. Thank you.
Oh, my goodness. That's so kind because I always feel like an imposter. Like, all the time, [Laughter] trying to help. Like, “Hi ISSTD, you said to show up, so here I am but now what?” I don’t know what’s going on.
So what I just need, the only thing I need from you to get started, once you're settled and ready and feel comfortable, is to go ahead and introduce yourself however you want to. Just enough so that listeners can sort of orient to the sound of your voice. Okay. And then we'll kind of just see what happens. I, really, honestly, I don't know either. But it always just kind of works out to exactly how it needs to. It's kind of been a meditation in a way, I guess.
Oh, that’s so awesome. Okay, I'm just going to trust the process and just go with the flow.
Okay.
Thank you. So my name is Jill Hosey. And I'm a social worker in private practice in Ontario, Canada, located in Toronto. I work with persons across the lifespan, I would say about as young as three, who have experienced trauma in their lifetime. I come to this work with different trainings and modalities. And as much as I, you know, continue to train and continue to grow and learn, I see myself as in an ongoing learner and student of humanity. I also recognize the importance, and it's not just about what we do in terms of therapeutic modality or orientation, but how we show up as human beings and create a container of safety, creating a therapeutic relationship so we can explore together. So we can engage in a healing journey together. So I can walk alongside my clients in their very unique healing journeys.
How did you first learn about trauma and dissociation? That's always the first question. Just how did you get to this place on your journey?
I was, I was actually quite-. And I was quite late in my own journey in terms of discovering, you know, what I want to do. And so I had done a bit of traveling and had decided at some point in time that I wanted to become a police officer. And so I went back to school, and I went into a program, and I'll never forget the day. I was sitting there, and I was in, I believe, a traffic, you know, legislation around traffic and ticketing. And I'll never forget sitting there and thinking in my head, “I really don't want to give people speeding tickets. I would rather sit down with them and become curious around what happened that they were speeding today. I wonder what's going on for them.” And it was that moment that I realized that I was in the wrong place for my own growth. And in that moment I realized I quote unquote, wanted to be a helper. And that for me has actually evolved. Because I've also come to realize the concept of helping and what that means for me, what that means for others, but that my journey needed to take, I needed to take a different direction. And so I completed that program. And then I started to wonder, okay, where do I go next.
And I went back to school into a psychology program, felt it wasn't a fit. I found myself in a sociology program, felt that wasn't a fit either. And a professor had become curious around social work, and it was a fit. And so I went into a Bachelors of Social Work in a critical social work program and went on to do my master's degree in that same program. And when I entered the program, I went into this program thinking, “I am going to help. I'm going to make a difference.” And that was my guiding force until I was sitting in a class one day, and the professor said something that made me pause and make me start to think, “What does that mean and who is that about?” Who is my helping about? Is it about me and wanting to help because that's going to make me feel better? And what's that about? Or is this because I want to meet people where they're at in their own journey? And so I that was the pivot for me in terms of recognizing, okay, I have a lot of my own work that I need to do. I have a lot of my own exploration that needs to occur as I'm on my own journey of figuring out who I want to be in the world. And as well as realizing that I also don't get to decide what quote unquote “help” looks like. And for me that started an ongoing lifelong journey of trying to unlearn what I know, and trying to figure out how to show up in a way where I develop comfort and certainty in all that I don't know and all that is uncertain. And that is something I've carried along with me in my journey of trying to show up in a way that works for others, and is not about me.
I think it's one of the first things that drew me to you actually, is um-. I mean, I know we're in the middle of a pandemic. We live in different places. And I don't mean, like, we don't hang out all the time. [Laughter] I’d love to. Right? But I got to know you, actually, first through the podcast is where I quote, met you. Just online a little bit. Because you were an early supporter of the podcast. Which meant so much to me because as we started coming out about the podcast, that was such a terrifying experience. And so you were one of the first safe people. And I don't know if you even know this. You were one of the first safe people that just reassured me that us just being here in this space was even okay. And then as we started participating more in ISSTD, we got to know your work and your thoughts a little bit more, and interacted just a little bit that way. And then taking, we were in the EMDR class. And so getting to know you, one of the things that I so appreciate about who you are, is exactly what you just shared, is that presence that you offer of holding space. Even across the internet through the pandemic. And it is such a safe experience. And there are so many of us who have never even had that. And, and it’s significant enough that I felt it, even in this context where-. I mean, you're not my therapist. We don't get to live in the same place. There's the pandemic. Work with the ISSTD often is just like even emails or meetings, right? It's not even, like, hang out and chat time. And so it's just, it's, it's something that is so meaningful and so significant that I appreciate how you have been able to just hold presence and sort of somehow open up that space to let me hold presence too. For example, just using as an example. And that's so meaningful in a way that I don't know that survivors often get that experience, or are even aware of that experience, much less having it outside of therapy. And so I appreciate that about you.
How do you, how did, how did you get from sort of coming from that, through that journey and getting into ISSTD or working with survivors? How did that piece of things? Like, it seems so naturally through the work that you've done—you've done so much work—but how did that unfold for you to connect from that piece to survivors?
I want to say first, thank you for sharing that with me. I had no idea. And I feel extremely honored, I've been able to do that. So thank you for sharing that with me. It's, what my journey has been all about learning about myself, and formal learning in a learning context, in classes and clinical trainings at school, as I continue to grow and learn in more formal ways. And I had been given an incredible opportunity in my practicum at the end of my bachelor's degree to work with a local Victim Services Agency. And it was crisis work where I got to work with survivors in the moment of experience. And it was an incredible opportunity for me, and I learned so much. And it supported me to keep moving forward in my journey. And so, I continued trucking along, and not really knowing where I was going or where I was going to end up, and what kind of work I wanted to do. And I landed working-. And it took some navigating and figuring out where I wanted to be. And I started working in an agency that provided services for persons who had experienced domestic violence. And that was the start of really starting to work with survivors. And I had been given the phenomenal opportunity, again, to work with such incredible clinicians and mentors to continue learning. And I had begun working with adults, and I'll never forget there was this moment of realization where I thought, “I’m missing something. I’m missing something in my work.” I'm working with adults, and I so value and appreciate this work. And I realize, for whatever reason, in that moment, adults were once children who may have had these incredibly adverse experiences, whether they're experiences, traumatic experiences of comission where things have happened to them, or traumatic experiences around omission, things that needed to happen but didn't get to happen. And I began a journey just starting to learn to work with kids and youth. And I was afforded wonderful opportunities to work with different mentors and different teachers.
And it wasn't until my EMDR training that things shifted for me. And I walked into my EMDR training, and there's very much a practical component. That's a part of it. So you come into the training and you're asked to bring your own material. And in my training I was asked to bring material that was let's say, for example, a four out of 10 distressing and something that occurred prior to the age of 10. And I froze. I froze. And I realized I don't have many memories from prior to the age of 10. And it took some navigating and maneuvering to get through that training, which was very very difficult. But that started me on my own personal journey and becoming curious around why don't I remember.
And I started working with an EMDR therapist who understood different ways of using EMDR therapy and adapting the protocol to work where there may not be access to memories. And before we even go near memories, what needs to happen to build safety and security within the room to even approach those things that I may not have access to. The things that as I move forward in my journey, I realized they lived in my body. As much as my mind didn't know, my body did. And that started my healing journey. And as well as what I-. So in my own training, what I oftentimes do is I will train in a modality and before I integrate it into my practice, I will actually work with a therapist with my own stuff to understand what it feels like and what it means. And it's, it's unique to my own experience. And it can't be translated to anyone else because each human beings experience, the ways our mind and body protects us, is different for everyone. But I have found that in doing my own work with whatever modality I'm learning, it supports me in being able to show up for my clients.
And that, I mean, my learning journey is ongoing and I feel like I'm going to be forever a student. I am a student with my clients where my clients help me to understand their experience, I can come into the room with certain modalities and, and, you know, ideas around change and shift. But again, that's what I think, and I don't know that that matters as much as being able to come into a room and understand—I mean, a virtual meeting space now, of course—what's going on for my client. What fits? What's their language? And I ground it back in what was my language? And what did I need to be honored,so that I was able to do my own work? And so I found that my own work continues to humble me in my clinical work.
This feels so sacred, this space in that. Because the work that you've done on yourself, in yourself, with yourself, is so evident just from this far away perspective, and you can feel the safety of that and how it opens up. And I think that I am, I'm feeling several different things. I think that you're saying something that is so significant for therapists, and for the survivors who are looking for therapists. There is something about being able to just share a space that is so healing besides anything that needs, quote, “fixing,” right? Yeah. I think, I think, of course, of course there are things I need to work on in therapy. And of course there are things that I need to do and that we need to do together. And there are, there's so much doing and fixing and healing and, like, that's why I'm going to therapy. Because I'm a person who wants to get better, who wants to be well, who wants to be fully present with all of myself. Like, whatever that means to me, that's why I'm there, right? That's why I'm showing up in therapy. That's why I'm doing the work just to get myself to therapy. But at the same time, and regardless of techniques, or specialties, or certifications, or not, I think that more than anything I need that space. Or with my own clients want to offer that space. And when I don't, I don't think-. I don't know. I know those other things are important. But I don't see, at least for me, especially because I've had some therapy drama last year, I don't think that I can get to that place of being able to do that work without having that space. Does that make sense? Like that space is such a prerequisite. And I think that's the problem that happens with the techniques and certifications and things. They're wonderful tools that do so much good, but we have to have that space first.
Yeah, I so agree. I've been spending a lot of time thinking about this idea of, you know, fixing and change and what does that mean? And, you know, I remember my own experiences showing up in EMDR therapy, for example. And, okay, so I'm going to reprocess those memories. But I'm reprocessing these memories in a space with another human being. And my experiences, my adverse experiences, my own traumatic experiences, have occurred with other human beings. And so there's something happening in the room. I can't go near that content because the very idea of being in a room with another human being is triggering. Yes. And so how do we then create a container? I think of Dr. Stephen Porges in this safe container whereby we can focus on their therapeutic work. And is it fixing? I mean, I don't know. I, I think that all the ways in which our mind and body has stepped in to protect us are gifts of survival? And do they need to be fixed? Or can we learn how to use them in a way that works in the present? Use them when they're needed and draw in other things when they're not. And I continue to be challenged by this idea of strategy, modality, technique. Can we even use a strategy, or a modality, or a technique, if the very idea of being in a space in relationship to other has been the source of trauma? And then I sit and I think, as therapists, the times where I've thought, you know, this isn't quote, unquote, “working,” or I'm not doing something right, is it that it's not working? Or is it that the space, this container, isn't safe enough yet? That I am a trigger? And not because I'm intentionally doing something wrong, not because there's anything wrong with my client, because my client has been hurt and harmed in relationship. So this complexity around there is hurt, and harm, and trauma within relationship, but that it's relationship that heals. So how do we work in that in between space to create safety?
I think that's everything. Yeah. I think it's everything. In fact, you've been so vulnerable. I can, I can share this, I talked about it a little bit already. And I know you know because you were there. But I tried to do the ISSTD EMDR class. And everyone was so respectful of me trying to do it. And I worked so hard to be prepared. And I thought, “Okay, I can do this because of these reasons. I think that I'm ready to do this. I need it because it will be helpful to these particular people, and I really want to help them in this particular way.” And so I tried so hard to do this. And I read everything. And the same thing in a different way, but you know, you need to come with this experience so think ahead of time within this context what you could use safely. But then also saying, “Oh, yes, by the way, I have DID, and I'm a survivor, in case you didn't know.” And so having to work out all those things. And I thought I had really safe threads that in that very careful context would be okay. Yep. And I was so prepared in those ways. And I feel like I did a good job of that part. Like, I'm really proud of myself, that was big work for me. Yeah. Yeah. It is.
But then as soon as I was in that space with another person, and they were doing, they were learning—like, other students, right—so they were learning, like, I was learning. We were all being vulnerable together. No one did anything wrong. And we were all being safe for each other. And I was trying to follow the protocols or whatever, and doing all these things. But just to be that close in a space with another person, it was too much. I couldn't do it. Yeah. And I had to step back and then give myself permission to say, “Okay, so now what I've done is confirmed the whole relational trauma theory. [Laughter] And just offering myself the grace and the space to say that I can't. And clearly not only do I have my own trauma from growing up or whatever, but I specifically have this therapy trauma, and this being in a space with another.
And that's what helped me realize, like, I have gotten through the last year of quarantine, and the pandemic in 2020, and all of that, with all my therapy drama of having to leave my therapist, and now my therapist I got after that has died of COVID. Oh my goodness. Like, all of this therapy drama, I have contained it in the quarantine experience. And so as we start to leave quarantine, and we're getting vaccinated, and things start to open up in small small tiny ways, and I don't know what that will look like in the future or by the time this airs, but my anxiety is, “I'm okay where I am. I don't know how to go back to people.” I've worked really hard learning how to Zoom and connect best this way, or to help with this way. But now that I'm aware of relational trauma and the depths of it, it just stirs up so much and it's so difficult.
Yeah, you know, I sit and I listen and I reflect, and I think, “What a learning in that moment is-.” So it's, I'm trying to find the right words for this, and I don't know that I can because it's your experience and not mine. But this idea where that's the, that's information in the next layer of healing, that moment of realization that, “Okay, this is not the right time or the right fit. What does that mean? I've just learned something new about all of me, and that's the next layer.” And I don't know if that's coming across in the way that I intended to. But that it's all important information. It's all part of the journey. It's all part of healing.
I think that it was huge information. And I think you're absolutely right. Because what happened was, I have spent years and years and years, decades—decades!—afraid of the content of my past. And this has happened. And realizing that even though the content is difficult, and the content is hard. Like, not to minimize that at all, or dismiss or dissociate from the severity of that. I get that that's a problem and that needs to be addressed in therapy. Absolutely. But the thing that's actually in my way of getting that work done, or getting that help done, is not the content, it's the relationship and that relational trauma piece.
And hearing, like, Simone last year present about relational trauma and how that's worse neurobiologically and neurologically on the brain even then other kinds of abuse, right? It freed so much, and I was what I did do while I was searching for therapists was go back through all my therapy notebooks, and all my journaling, and all of that, and wrote the book. Like, that's how our book came out. Oh wow. Because, okay, so here's the content. If we're no longer afraid of the content-. Like, it's difficult. I'm not minimizing content. Yeah. But it's not the piece I'm afraid of. And that empowered me to be able to look at it. So now I have this outline of, “Okay, so we don't put the worst things in the book. And we still have these boundaries for the book. But I can say things in my own words because I'm not afraid of the content anymore in the same way. And so here's a list of triggers that we can actually resolve because we're not afraid of content.” And I can say the content is hard, or the, the, the traumas are difficult. But, but what is the place where the wounds are, is in relationship. And so, here's an outline, here's a container. So then my story went to the container of the book, right? Yeah. And, but it's something I can hold. it's outside myself. And so sharing that, or choosing where it goes, or to what degree we share that or not, or all the pieces that are not in it, of course. But that that's going to be with a person. That it's the process of connection, and the being with, and someone being with us, I think, is everything. The presence, not the content.
Absolutely. And I, I feel like it's so important that within the therapeutic space that we make, as therapist, this space for everything to be seen, known, heard, felt, within the context of the relationship. And not just about the content, how terrifying it is. And that as therapists it feels—I feel—that I have a responsibility to have open ears, an open presence, that all of me has to reflect back in my words, my actions, my my body language, my facial expressions. Which I get wrong and mess up on. But that it conveys that no matter what shows up, even if it's about me, and me not getting it, and me not showing up in the way that’s needed, that there is space for that. That with all of the things that that needed to happen within the context of forming secure attachment, that there's a rebuilding or re-scaffolding, and the client is the expert in their own experience. And how we do and don't show up as therapists is so important. And it doesn't matter how many trainings we go to, how many certifications we have, how many modalities.
I talk about trying to look at myself from the inside out when I'm in the room. What's my face showing right now? What's my body showing? Does it match? I don't know how this is being internalized. Can I make space for that to come into the room? To be seen and known and heard? Without any judgment, without any criticism, acknowledging the ways in which transference and countertransference shows up in the room, to honor it? I really, you know, as I sit here and I talk about this, I'm thinking about my own mentoring with Ana Gómez and how much she's taught me about this, and how it's helped me in my own journey of discovering me. Because if, if I can understand that, then maybe I can offer some of me and offer repair, corrective experiences, relearning, and also make space for my clients to say, “No, I don't want that right now.” And for that to be okay too.
*Interview paused*
You can hear this conversation continue in the next episode.
[Break]
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