Transcript: Episode 357
357. ISSTD Annual Conference Recap (with Julie Trana)
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Julie Trana is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor working in private practice in Boise, Idaho. She specializes in working with adult survivors of interpersonal trauma who are struggling with complex PTSD and dissociative response. She also provides supervision for interns and newly licensed counselors seeking to advance their competence of working with trauma. Julie earned her Master's degree in Clinical Psychology from Pacific University in Portland, Oregon in 2009, and her Bachelor's degree in Psychology from the University of Idaho in 2007. In addition to using an integrative approach that incorporates top-down and bottom-up approaches in treatment, Julie also draws from her own lived-experience of interpersonal trauma and childhood to help inform her work. Prior to private practice, Julie served as a clinical director for two community health agencies and a nonprofit organization serving survivors of interpersonal violence, and assisted with opening a 24-hour community crisis center. Welcome to our friend and colleague Julie.
[Discussion begins]
[Podcast host is in bold; podcast guest is in standard font]
My name is Julie Trana, and I'm a counselor in private practice in Idaho.
So it was super fun to like read your bio because I didn't know you were such a fancy pants with your jobs. And your clinical experience. I mean, I knew you were a therapist also. And I got to see you as well in the PTP program. We were both in class with Sue Baker and John O'Neill. I knew you were a clinician. That was not a surprise to me. But reading all your fancy bio is pretty fun to see. I'm gonna call you Director from now on.
[Laughter] You don't have to. I left those jobs. [Laughter] Now I'm just in private practice.
You are in private practice treating what kind of clients?
Mostly adults that have experienced interpersonal trauma, and so now they're trying to work through that and all the stuff that goes with it, like the anxiety and depression and dissociation.
And so you went to the ISSTD Annual Conference, which is where we met in person for the first time.
Yes, yes. I was so excited to get to go, that it was actually in-person, and then to get to meet you, it was just extra.
Oh, that's so kind. It was so funny, because-. Not funny, is not the right word. It was-. It was a little-. I don't know, at least for me, for us, for me. It was a little anxiety provoking up to the last minute, because it's like, do we go? Do we not go? Do we go? Do we not go? Like, enough out of the pandemic, that they had good precautions in place. Everyone had to be masked. Everyone had to show that they were vaccinated, and a COVID test. And so like for the conditions—the tables were six feet apart—like for the conditions at this point in the pandemic with numbers as low as they were, it seemed pretty safe. But also I just have to say first, before we even talk about the conference, that it was really weird to leave my house and just go get on an airplane.
Yes, same. I agree I had the same kind of like, “do I go?, do I not?,” right up until like the plane took off probably. But it felt so weird. Even just being there. Like, I haven't been in a hotel in more than two years.
It really was very surreal. And I know that's not what we're here to talk about today. But I had to mention it because it was really-. I did not expect that to be as significant as it was or as emotional as it was.
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. It was it was overwhelming. And like, it was good, but also scary at the same time.
I also want to give you props because you were very kind to me. We met right at the very beginning of the conference, and we knew we were going to meet there and we look for each other, found each other. And I was so grateful. Because you were so kind and so patient the first time that we met. I couldn't even talk, and you were just very patient and kind. I’m sorry.
You know, it was okay because I was having a hard time talking too. So it was nice to be able to sit in that like awkward silence that wasn't terribly awkward with you.
And it wasn’t unsafe.
No.
So we got through that and got that out of our system, and then the rest of the week we think as thin. No wait, how does it go? We were, we were buddies.
Thick as thieves?
There we go. We were not doing any thieving though.
No, we were very good. No mischievious stuff.
No, but we did get to try their food, and they had really good food.
Yes, they did. Right there in the hotel, so you didn't even have to leave.
What do you think was your favorite food that you had the whole time?
I had the fettuccine carbonara twice and both times it was fabulous. Yeah. How about you?
I think I’m still dreaming about the food. I'm sorry to focus on that. But it was amazing. And I was so surprised that it was amazing. But then I got home and I was talking to the husband and he was like, “You know, you've lived on those free food boxes. You've had like broth and V8 for two years.” I'm like, “No, this was the best food on the planet.” I’m not sure you're a great judge of that. I think it's just that you were actually eating.” So I feel like there's some follow-up conversations there with the therapist. But anyway. It was good. You were delightful. You were very kind. The people were amazing. So amazing. We got to talk to everyone. Everyone is very, very human at ISSTD. At the conference it is not about these fancy people or these experts. We are just all people and everyone is helping each other. And it was amazing.
Yes. That was something that was a little weird for me. Because a lot of these people like I've read their books and I've read their articles. And so they're bigger than life to me. But then they just sit down next to you and have a chat like you're totally normal. It was really nice.
It was nice. Except also, you and I could not have a whole conversation without being interrupted. Everyone kept coming up and talking about the podcast or wanting to sit down and talk with us. How was that for you? Are you okay with that?
I was okay with that. It was, it got me out of my shell. Because if it hadn't been for that I probably would have just like gone to the conferences and then gone back to my hotel room and not talked to anybody. So it was helpful for me.
Who were some of the fun people that you got to see or talk with or chat with?
Well, you, of course. I was so excited to get to meet Susan Pease Banitt and get to talk with her a few times. That was so wonderful.
We had so many adventures. Yeah. So many adventures The favorite thing, the story I will tell about spending time with you that was really funny was that we kept sitting close to the escalators. And one was going up and one was going down, and they were in that rhythm, and I finally was like, “I think it's hypnotizing me.”
Yes. And I had just finished the hypnotizing training, like the Clinical Hypnosis Training and so I was like primed for that. I guess it is.
I'm getting two different messages. I’m getting two different messages at the same time. That's, that's actually the perfect place for us to start. Tell us what was that like, the hypnosis training? That was, so that was a pre-conference, right? Right. I did one of the pre-conference sessions, which everybody's already heard, because I did part of it on the podcast last spring and part of it on the podcast last fall. And this was an all day thing. But the Hypnosis Training, and I think also the EMDR training that some other people did, was three days before the conference, right?
Yes, three full days. Yeah. And they were full. Oh, my goodness. My brain was so full at the end of every day.
What was that setup, the class, like? Was it didactic and they were just teaching? You had to practice things? Or what did you learn about hypnosis that you didn't know before?
So many things. Because I hadn't ever taken any trainings in it, and so this was the Level One training that was put on by ASCH, the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis, but it was also through ISSTD. And it was didactic. So they had three different trainers that were kind of rotating in and out, that were giving lecture, leading discussion, kind of answering questions and teaching us about hypnosis and using it in therapy, and just the basic setting. But then we also split up into groups and had practices where we had to take turns being that therapist, put someone in trance, and then the participant going into trance.
So I'm fascinated by this, I actually had planned to take this class, either with you, or my friend Alexis who helped edit the workbook. But I couldn't because when they scheduled my pre-conference. So I could not take the class. But tell me, what did you learn about-. Not how to do hypnosis. But what did you learn about what hypnosis is or how it's helpful? Like, why are we wanting to do-. Like, why is that part of treatment? Because it's a big deal sometimes. Not everybody does it. But it can be a big part of trauma treatment. Why?
Yeah. But what I've learned about it is that folks, especially that have experienced dissociative response, they're going into trance all the time. On their own, like without any control over it. And you know, normal-. Not normal. Everyday people go into trance that haven't experienced trauma also. But those folks that are experiencing that kind of trauma response, it's happening all the time and getting in the way of things. And so using it in therapy makes so much sense because they're already doing it, but now we can help people feel more in control of it, and use that in a way to heal instead of just avoid.
So, almost like an official way of intentional dissociation.
Yeah, kind of, but it's also like, getting more in touch with your unconscious mind and your body, but in a way that's not overwhelming like mindfulness is. I don't even know the best way to describe it. It's almost something you have to experience. It's just really this calm and easy attuning to yourself, and getting your own head out of the way so you can really know what you're feeling or thinking.
I also, I agree with you. It reminds me of EMDR, which I know a lot of people are skittish about because they have really bad experiences with it when it's used poorly. But when it is one of many tools, or part of the overall picture of therapy, it can be so helpful in specific incidences. And I'm talking about this because I’ve just gone through this in my own therapy after two years of intense, debilitating grief after the loss of a therapist, to six months of therapy which included most recently some eye movements for the first time. And I am so much better after just a week or two of that. And I know that the eye movements are not just magical. Like, I can't just do that instead of therapy. It really was using and built on all this other work we've done for the last six months. But it was a reminder that tools like hypnosis, or EMDR can be so useful in managing—not alters or people, people cannot be managed, people don’t need to be managed—but symptoms and coping skills and resourcing what's already in us, but using it for good instead of only being distressed by it.
Yes, yes. Like you said, “building what's already in us,” but also letting us access it instead of it being locked away. Which is really nice. And yeah, I agree that hypnosis and EMDR can serve similar and like cooperative services. They can work together.
I think it's brilliant. So hypnosis was three days. That was Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Yes. And EMDR was at least two of those days. I presented on Thursday. And then Friday, the big session that is usually almost always a pre-conference is the Dissociation 101 that Mary-Anne Kate and Christine Forner do. And I've talked about that on the podcast before so I don't want to go into that now, but I would absolutely 100% recommend it to anyone. I think what would be really good is if that session, the Dissociation 101 was like matched up or melded with—not integrated [Laughter]—but like if it were part of what I did all day. Like, I really feel like my session and that session go together and people need to be able to attend both of them. I think every clinician should attend both of those sessions. Because it explains so much about the history of the diagnosis. It explains so much about how we got Plurality and what that is and what's going on with it now. And then all the stuff that's going on in the brain. And when you understand what's happening in the brain it alleviates so much of the shame, because this is not a behavioral problem. This is something that is wrong in our brain. Something not wrong with us, wrong that happened to us. And our response to that is a natural and biological response.
Right, that we can't just think our way out of, or like just change your behavior and make a change.
Exactly, exactly. So then, so that was all pre-conference activities. The actual conference was Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Yes. And the conference opened on Saturday morning with the plenary with Julian Ford and Christine Courtois. Did you get to watch that?
I did. Yes.
What was that like? Because that's an example, when you talk about, “I've read your books.” That is one of the classic textbooks, right, that we even had in PTP class.
Yeah, they were through Zoom, so they weren't actually there. So there was a-. I was a little disappointed. But again, that happens. But yeah, they I think they like co-wrote or edited the first book in the PTP program. So I had read their name so many times. And it was again that like, wow, they feel like giants in the field and I've learned so much from them. It was really nice to get to see them speak.
It's interesting to match people's faces with the material that we’ve read either from the listserv, or from ISSTD or from books or articles. To get to match their faces and see them work together and collaborate together is pretty fascinating.
Yeah. And that makes them just human, right? Getting to see their face.
Yes, yes. So where did you go after that? Because I was working as part of staff for ISSTD. So I had to help the livestreams keep running and iron out any troubles there and making sure that that was all functioning. And so where I got assigned was to the Common Threads Project, which was a woman sewing circle for recovery and healing for trauma. And they talked about how sewing is actually a bilateral experience for the body, for your hands in your brain. And so how different stitches can be used for sort of regulating some of that and processing some of that, but also how you can tell stories through quilting and through sewing. And they gave some amazing examples. What did you go see later that morning?
I went and saw Susan Pease Banitt. She did Did That Really Happen?: Successful Stage Two Memory Integration Work with Dissociative Clients. And that was wonderful. Like, I mean, it was so nice to hear her speak and talk about how memory doesn't get integrated with dissociation, and so it doesn't feel real because the different aspects of memory aren't, like, they're not all present. So like she was saying that there are, like, we remember the narrative or the story of what happens. And then we remember the physical sensations, like in our body, and then the effect, so how we feel. And when those three things aren't together, the memory doesn't feel real. Which makes so much sense when you think about traumatic memory, because those things don't get stored together. Right. And so, yeah, so it doesn't feel real.
Oh, my goodness. Okay, so say this one more time. Because I know what you're saying about-. I know, I know, from that Dissociation 101 thing that Christine Forner has done before. And she came on the podcast and talked, I think that episode is Cascade of Defenses. Yes. Talked about how the brain works and how memory is stored during trauma and how the amygdala is like, “No, we're gonna bypass everything.” And the hippocampus is like, “Oh, we're gonna do this and put everything where it goes really fast, or not where it goes.” And, and all of this. So I understand the brain pieces. But say again what you just said about the pieces of memory not going together, and that's why it doesn't feel real.
Yeah. So she was presenting that in order for memory to feel real, we have to have all three of those things together. So we have to remember the story of it, the way it felt in our bodies, and the way we, like, our emotions around it. But when those things aren't all together it doesn't feel real. So if we only have the narrative but we can't access the emotions or the sensations in our body, it feels like we're just seeing a story that’s someone else's. And so that's what Stage Two work is, is like bringing those pieces all back together and connecting them.
Oh, my goodness. I think this is huge for so many reasons. It's huge, obviously, for therapy. Like what you're talking about in Stage Two and memory work, in integrating not parts or alters, but the memory, what experienced, what you thought about it, what you felt about it, the bodily sensations. Putting all those pieces, integrating or, or processing all of those as one solid memory as opposed to pieces of a memory. But I think it also explains how it's so difficult, or can be so difficult, for us to know what our own stories are. Or to believe, I feel like is the wrong word, but I don't know what the right word is. Sort of those narratives that we get from other parts. Where it's like, well, already that part is a “not me,” right? Like using the language from the workbook. It's already a “not me.” It already feels like “not me.” So of course, whatever story they present to me also feels “not me.” And then, and then there's other implications of that too. Because there's stories when people do—whether it's abusers, or in bad therapy, or whatever—when people do give us false information, it feels as unreal as what already feels unreal. So it's hard to tell the difference. Yeah. And then I think it would apply to gaslighting too, where you're having a trauma response because of that abusive situation. But you can't sort out the truth of it when someone is telling you something different because you're already feeling, like it already feels so unreal. That makes so much sense in 100 ways.
Yeah, yeah. And makes it so hard to trust our own memories and our own experience.
That's a lot.
That was a lot. The other big piece I would say that I took from that is she was talking about how important it is for clinicians who are working with these folks to be able to hear what they're going to tell you and believe it or hold space for it. Because if we're telling our clients we don't believe them or that it's not realistic what has happened, that's just reinforcing their own like minimization or denial. So we as the people that are working with them have to have the capacity to hear what they're going to tell us. Because a lot of what they tell us is, it's hard stuff to hear.
And when they can't, even if it's because of limited capacity, then it feels like not just a rupture, but it neurobiologically reinforces dissociation. Yeah, yeah. Wow.
So hers was really good. I really enjoyed hers. And it was full. The whole room was full. I don't think there were empty chairs. I think people were sitting on the floor.
That's amazing. That's amazing. And, and I feel like it explained something. I don't know if it's even aired or not, I can't remember. But on the podcast, I recently shared that we've had some contact from the biological family. And one of the things that happened was like, “if you don't fix this, like, we're never going to, we're just going to cut you out.” And I'm paraphrasing. That is not a direct quote, nor do I mean to offend my family further by speaking. But that's, that's a similar thing in that there's something about when it's ultimatums and threats, as opposed to-. And like shame, even if they believe I deserve the shame, that is more trauma which pushes away further instead of inviting in. Does that make sense?
It does.
I think, I think that just-. I know we want to stay focused on the conference. But I'm working really hard right now trying to apply things and connect things. And I think the same thing applies to me and just owning my own issues and my own struggles in some friendships, or even the friendships I've lost over the last few years. I spent two years completely dissociating from the experience of the loss of friendships and my previous therapist. And in that time, I was also on the podcast saying, “I am grieving. This is awful. This is sad. Why is this happening? Why would they do this? Why would they do this?” But because I didn't have access to them for like a direct conversation like is the healthy thing to do in real life, I think in a way that caused the same kind of thing for them of making it harder to discuss things or to heal that or repair it. Because they are feeling the same thing of like, “well, now I've been on the podcast as a bad person, so of course I don't feel safe with you.” Which is not what I intended or what I meant or what I understood I was doing at the time. But there's something in here that you're sharing, that I feel like is bigger than just therapy, that is so relational and about how we treat each other and what kindness really is and how it really heals or not.
Yeah, and how important it is that we can create and hold space for people.
I feel like-. I'm sorry I'm still on this. But I feel like there's something really powerful. Like, when you're saying this to me, it feels like a seed. It's like something if I could hold on to what you're sharing about this piece, and I could practice that with people around me, that maybe—and without meaning any harshness to myself, just in all compassion of wanting to be a better human—that this is what helps, could help me be a better human. People are hard for me because of trauma, right? Yeah. It's hard to do relationships. It's hard to do friendships. And when we are so quick to put up our defenses, whether that's to push people away, or to hide from them or to just dissociate from that they're there at all, it's hard to heal anything when you can't stay present in it.
Yeah. I don't even know if it's possible to heal if you can't stay present and connected.
Oh, man. That's painful. I'm gonna have to wrestle with that and come back to this piece. [Laughter] Okay. I'm sorry. I know it's not therapy time. I’m just, I'm recognizing the depth of what you're sharing and this piece is such an interpersonal one, not just treatment one.
Yeah. No, I felt that way at the conference. So many of the presentations were really important for my career, but also almost like therapy as well for me.
There's so much and it's such excellent information. And I think that that's part of what makes us good clinicians, when we are doing the work to apply it ourselves, not just asking our patients to do something or our clients to do something. Yeah. So, where did you go in the afternoon? In the afternoon I was live streaming like three sessions at once. So I'm gonna have to go back and watch these videos. But what did you get to see in the afternoon?
Yeah. So in the afternoon the first one I saw was Being a Detective on the Case: Following the Clues to a Dissociative Identity Disorder Diagnosis. And so this was put on by a woman who was talking about having worked with someone for two years before she saw their DID or was able to give them the diagnosis. And she walked us through it. So it was like a case presentation. Walked us through kind of what the signs were along the way and what she missed, and what she kind of gave her some clues that she did notice that helped lead to her eventual diagnosis, and then being able to focus more on that. And it was really good. And she did such a great job of presenting. She was a little hard on herself because she was talking about how it took her two years to catch the diagnosis. But I think that's really common, especially since most clients are so used to hiding it, like nobody sees it for a long time. But it was really helpful to see all the little clues along the way and all the red flags. They weren't like bad things, but just all the little clues that can help younger clinicians or newer clinicians start to see it sooner.
I love that she included sharing about things that she missed. Because that really shows someone who is responsive and trying to be attuned and learn from their experiences and teach others what they have learned. There's something powerful about that. It shows, it reflects a level of cultural humility. Absolutely. So what were some of those things that she missed? And what were some of the things that she caught?
So she, she definitely noticed that there was a significant history of trauma, and that there were things that she wasn't remembering in her past or that she was uncomfortable talking about. And she was also noticing, like, once in a while, the client would show up and just be in a very different state, like presenting very differently, wearing different clothes, talking in a very different manner. And she kind of wrote that off as, “oh, they're in a good mood or a different mood,” or, you know, that kind of thing. But then in hindsight, of course, she saw, “Oh, that makes perfect sense,” as to why that happened.
Wow. What about what about the afternoon? Where did you get to go in the afternoon?
After that one? I think it was, oh, yeah, it was the grief. Grief and Loss in Complex Trauma Survivors. And so this was a woman that like has done her career in grief. Her name is Janna Henning, hope I said that right. And she's done a ton of grief work. And so she was presenting on how to incorporate grief work into helping folks recover from trauma. Because there's so much grief with that, even if it's not like from an actual death. There's just so much loss.
Well, I don't know why that's important. I personally have no loss at all. Right? So what what are some-. Do you remember—it's okay if you don't—do you remember any examples that she gave as some losses in complex trauma?
Well, she, she gave us a wonderful example of how she-. One of the ways to work through grief is to have some sort of like ritual or some way to say goodbye. And she had a client who had been, experienced abuse at the hands of her father and then her father had passed away before there could be any kind of Justice. And so she created this mock trial with her therapist and went through the whole, you know, pretend trial to hold her father accountable for all these things that had happened to her. And, you know, she called like Julian Ford as a witness to explain how what happened to her can cause these lasting effects. And so, and the client felt so much closer through that process, even though it was all, you know, pretend. But it was so meaningful to the client to have that, like, her day in court, basically.
I don't even have words in response to that.
Yeah, it was big.
Well, I'm just gonna move on.
Sure. Let's move forward.
Oh, my goodness. That's a lot. So the afternoon, the posters also open. So it's always fun to see everyone's latest research. And then the awards were in the evening. What about Sunday? Where did you go on Sunday?
Are we just going to jump right past the awards where you got your word?
[Laughter] Yes. Yes. I am so glad you were sitting by me. I was so anxious, and they were gonna walk me up. And I was like, “I don't think I could do it. I don't think I could do it.” And then when they call my name, I was like, “I am going to throw up.” But I was wearing a mask and I thought that would be terrible. So I could not throw up because I'm wearing a mask. And it was so funny to feel, to like be present for, all these things happening in my head at once. But also you were sitting right there. And my friend from the office walked me up. And I stood there and grabbed and ran away. Came back flapping.
You did. But you got it. You stood up and you didn't throw up.
Oh my goodness, goals. Life goals.
Yeah. Congratulations again.
Well, thank you. Thank you.
And we can move on.
Oh, my goodness. Okay. Sunday morning. I was doing livestreams again. So I missed this as well. What did you-. I saw part of Jennifer and Michael's EMDR piece. Yeah. I saw part of the attachment one. I saw part of-. Oh! Oh, I saw, I ended up with House of Mirrors: When the Abused Go On to Abuse, which was put on by Faige Flakser, who I worked with on the Vicarious Trauma SIG with ISSTD. So that's how I know her. And she was amazing. She was talking about how when we punish people instead of treating people, like in a social justice way and the criminal system and foster care and things like that, then it makes sense that people respond with trauma responses. And that while no diagnosis or a trauma response excuses bad behavior, that we can't improve things or fix the system or make things better until we start treating people differently.
Right. That makes total sense. What do we expect from people?
Exactly. It was so, so powerful. It was so powerful. She did a great job. I was so proud of her. Where did you go Sunday morning?
I went to the one with Jennifer and Michael, that EMDR and dissociation
That Jennifer and Michael one, the EMDR one, I saw part of. And I know their work a little bit because I did their EMDR training. But I ended up auditing it instead of doing it, the whole training, because it was so intense and I was just not ready. I think it would be easier now. But I know them a little bit from that. What was that like Sunday morning?
Oh, that one was like a therapy session for me. Because most of the focus was talking about how important it is to be aware of how EMDR needs to be different with people with dissociation. And, and when it's not modified it can be harmful. The reason it felt like therapy for me is because my EMDR training, personally, when I was learning to do EMDR, ended up being one of those not great responses and I kind of had a really hard time there. So it was just really validating for me to have them talk about how important it is to incorporate that in anytime you're using EMDR, and to look for disassociation, even if you don't know that it's there because so often it's hidden in plain sight.
I will say that when I was in their class they were very respectful and very compassionate and very kind about it. And absolutely let me walk away with my dignity intact, let me participate in class to the degree I was able, and let me step away when I needed to say, “Okay, I'm not ready for this part, I will just have to try again another time.” And I am so so grateful to them. It was a moment where, yes, of course, obviously, because of the podcast, my story is out there and so everybody knows I have issues personally. But where professionally, I still got to be a professional, but also a human. And it wasn't even about that we have DID, it was about “I am a clinician and with this I am struggling.” And I think that that was a very restorative experience to me, DID aside, for me to just say, “I am a really good clinician, but also a human who's struggling,” and that it's okay for me to set boundaries. It's okay for me to set limits. It's okay for me to step away to ask for help. And they tended to that. They responded to that. They, I don't mean like they had to be my therapist, I just mean they're very respectfully responsive to, “Whatever your boundaries are, we'll do that. Whatever, you need to step away, that's fine. You're welcome to try again another time.” Like there was no shaming or punitive aspect to it at all. And I think just in that experience, it was very healing.
Yeah, I could totally see that from the presentation that they gave, because it was, it was like giving permission to be a clinician and be a professional, but also have things that you struggle with. And that doesn't mean you're not capable of doing your job or you're not qualified. It means that it's important to set your boundaries. Which you did, and they respected. It just felt wonderful. And restorative, like you said.
It was so good. The other thing that was happening that morning was Treating Neglect and Developmental Trauma in High Functioning People with OSDD. And that was interesting because I have DID so I know less about OSDD, but I love my OSDD friends. And I know that it's hard sometimes because I don't want to neglect them, and I don't want others to neglect them. I want them to be included and have what they need. But also because it's not my experience, it's harder for me to speak to that. So I love that this whole session was just about that. But she talked about-. This was by Kathleen Adams. And she talked about abject shame, and it was so intense that my brain completely, like it slipped through. Nothing of that stayed. But I just sat there and had to pick up my jaw off the floor, like literally was what just happened here. And so she's going to come on the podcast later and talk about it, because I can't even explain it.
Oh, that's wonderful.
In the afternoon, the first thing was Robert Muller What did you think about him?
Honestly, I think my brain was so full from everything, and his voice is so calming and hypnotic almost. I don't, I don't remember anything that I heard.
You know what? I am not even joking. Robert Muller-. Maybe this is just gonna be a me moment on the podcast, because it's not speaking or representing ISSTD or professionalism at all. But Robert Miller, Michael Coy and Jill Hosey, you just are in their presence, I could just lay down on the floor and take a nap. [Laughter]
Yes. Not like in any kind of like disrespectful or boring way, but just like so soothing.
The level of safety and the level of soothing. Yes! But In a very nonintrusive way. In a-. You know what they are good at, is what you were talking about with Susan Pease Banitt about holding space. Yeah, They are so good at holding space safely that it is like my whole neurological system just goes, “Ahhh.” And everything is okay for a minute. But I'm so used to either being completely shut down or so completely wired trying to cope that, no, like I can't function.
Yeah, yeah, it all went in, but I don't know where it went. I'm gonna have to rewatch that one.
He's talked before for ISSTD, and we've talked about some of his. So I'll have to go back and listen to the others as well. Yeah.
Later in the afternoon on Sunday, there was-. Okay. So let me tell you about this. I did not get to see her session because I was running the livestream stuff from other classes. But Joanne Twombly talked, did a session about counter transference. And I wanted to hear this because I feel like her name has come up several times in different situations. And I was like, “I need to know who this person is. How did I not know who this person is?” But guess what? Oh, you were there. Were you there when she found us? Yes, I was. And so she came over and started talking to us in sign language. [Laughter] Yeah.
And I was like, “what is happening right now?” So she walked over to us sat down, and then we ended up seeing her several times during the weekend. And she just signed and signed in. I was like, “how?” And so by the end of the weekend there were like six different clinicians we have become friends with who knew sign language and totally could speak to us in like our native heart language in sign. And it was just an incredible thing. I couldn't believe it.
Yeah, it was, it was awesome to get to see that too.
You know who else could sign? Laura Brown. I have emailed this woman-. We are, we have become friends through the podcast, through Peter. And we have emailed in French and in Hebrew, and I don't even know how many languages we have talked on email or a messaging. But in person at the conference, she busts out with her hands, and she's just signing to me. So we could have an whole sentence in like four languages at the same time. Wow. It was amazing. It was just really interesting. So Joanne Twombly, who I have not gotten to know, I got to know at this conference, and she is also going to come on the podcast. So we will share more about what she had to say.
There was also a session... Oh, these other people did a session about Brainspotting. I didn't get to see that because I was dealing with livestreaming. But have you ever even heard of Brainspotting?
I've heard that word. But I have not looked into it, and I don't really know what it is. So I didn't go to that one. But I'm very interested.
They were integrating—again, that choice of words—but they were using, like applying art therapy to Brainspotting. And this was one of the livestream sessions. So I saw parts of it but I didn't get to see the whole thing. And it was fascinating. So I have not confirmed them for the podcast. But I do need to message and say, “Hey, will you come on the podcast and talk about Brainspotting?” Because I have no idea about what that is.
Yeah, that would be really helpful.
Okay, that brings us to Monday. And Monday morning was Dr. Lebois, with Lauren's presentation about DID being a controversial disorder, except that it's not because neuroscience has confirmed it's an actual thing. She talked about Simone’s research that says it's not just a real thing, but we can see it on fMRI and it's distinct from other trauma disorders. It's distinct from other personality disorders. So the diagnosis itself has been confirmed as valid and legit regardless of all the controversy. And then she was also talking about her own research, which was developing on all of that. What did you think of her?
I really enjoyed that one because there was so much about like how the brain functions and it was nice to have that research confirmed again that like, “Yes, this is a real thing that shows up in fMRI,” guys.
I will have to watch this again. I will have to see it again. It was, it was really good though. She gave some links as well. And Simone was in the chat giving more links. And so all of those links that they gave during that session I put in Nerd Town.
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I have all those links open in my browser right now waiting to go back and read them.
There you go. Later in the morning. What? Were there any of those that you got to see?
Yeah, the Triggering of Somatoform Dissociation in a Dissociative World? Oh, by Dr. Rousell. It was really good. He was talking about how these symptoms show up in like in somatic form, things in our bodies. And had some videos of actually working with clients in hypnosis, again, where he can help them release some of those body memories. And it was intense, but really good.
You said that and I totally spaced out. Like, my body rejected it. My body was like, “No, I am not ready to consent to this.” Oh, my goodness.
I think that's fair.
Oh, my goodness. After lunch, I think we both ended up in a session together. And it was another EMDR one. It was with Christine Sells. And it was about attachment. Now I want to talk to her directly about what she was doing. Because there was a point-. She had so much information. You can tell that she has studied. She even said this is supposed to be a six hour presentation and I'm packing it into two hours or three hours. And there was so much there. But one of her cases where she said, “This one is not DID, but I want to show you this protocol.” And she was doing some resourcing. And you and I were like, “No, I think she is DID. Yeah, it definitely seemed like it. It was a really intense session. She knows so much. She's clearly got her EMDR way down. And I just admire and appreciate that. I, my brain, I have tried to do the EMDR, as I shared. I mean to learn it, to get certified. And it is something I recommend a lot in my international work because it can be so helpful with disaster sites and war zone stuff. But my brain does not want to follow all of those steps. There's a lot of steps. My brain does not, I cannot, it really reveals a weakness in me in that I am not as present as I think I am. Which I think I believe to be significant information for me to have as a clinician and a person in recovery. Because I cannot stay present enough to track the steps I'm supposed to be doing. So when there is someone who is really good at EMDR, I am in awe of their brains and their ability to hold presence, because I can't do the steps.
Right? Well, not only do all the steps, but then stay really attuned with the client also. Those together are so hard.
It's so much. And she clearly was good at those EMDR steps. I was like, “kudos to you, sister.” Yeah. I cannot do it. It's so hard. But I did appreciate it was the first time-. Well, no, not the first time, because Michael Coy shows some videos in his training for the EMDR for ISSTD training. But it was the first time outside of that that I had seen examples in different ways by another clinician. And so I appreciated seeing that because it helps me as a clinician understand, and it helps me as a person in therapy understand a little bit better about what we're trying to do and that it's going to work and it's okay. And so in some ways it felt reassuring in that way.
Yeah. You know, if you want videos, Jamie Marich has a lot of videos that she shares of doing EMDR with folks with dissociation. They're so helpful. I think you've had her on your show, right?
I love Jamie Marich. Yes. Yeah. She wrote a chapter in my clinical book. She has-. Where are these? Like on her website or YouTube or?
Yeah, I mean, I think they're on YouTube. She also has a website where she shares them all. They're just, you know, she has lots of trainings that are free to watch that has, like her giving examples of doing EMDR with dissociation, and it's really helpful.
Where is this? Because she has like 18 websites.
She does. I'll have to look. I’ll look and find it and I'll send you a link. Because yeah, I found a lot of them. And they're so helpful.
Wow. So conference was a lot. It was a lot. So much. Was there anything else that you wanted to share or reflect on, or that you learned or noticed from that experience, whether it was sessions or anything else.
Not that I can think of right now. I think it was just, there was so much wonderful information. And it was so nice to be in the same space as all these other humans who are professionals wanting to care for people that I want to care for. And people like me.
There were so many sessions. And there were sessions we didn't even get to talk about because we could only go to a few. Like, we could only go to one at a time. Even me livestreaming, I had to flip back and forth, so then I couldn't be in any of them. And so it's so much. But the ones that were recorded will be on the CFAS site for ISSTD, the Center for Advanced Studies, and so people can watch those videos and see the ones they missed. Or, or if they did not get to attend the conference, they can find those videos there. And if you registered for the conference then all the PowerPoints are there and you can look up more sessions or read about ones you didn't even get to go to. So that's really helpful. I think they said we have access to those for six months.
Yeah, I'm excited to get to go back and watch ones I missed, or ones that I watched.
Right? Some of those I thought, “I need to watch this at least six times.” I couldn’t retain. There was so much in there. I want to thank you for talking with us today. I want to thank you for eating dinner and lunch and break time snacks with me during the week while we were at the conference. [Laughter] You made it so less scary. And I was grateful to have a friend from the beginning. I am a fan of conferences when I am very much in my head. But this was an interesting experience for me because, because of the podcast and because of my work with ISSTD, there was a lot of socializing that was required of me. And I don't mean in an oppressive way. I mean in a way that is new and different from me before. Because I am pretty introverted. And normally if I attended a conference I would be as invisible as possible. I would register and check in, go to my sessions and then go back to my room. And that's really all I would do. But this, people knew who I was and wanted to come up and talk to me. People wanted books. The books were flying out so fast. And there were people I needed to talk to because I wanted to or because I had assignments that I needed to get work done. And so it was a lot. And for me to have both of those parts, if you will, trying to navigate things at the same time. It was a lot. It was a lot. And it was all very overstimulating and overwhelming, and I was exhausted. But it was so good. It was so good.
I agree. I would normally be the same kind of recluse at a conference. But it was wonderful to be stretched outside of my comfort zone and get to experience some of that great stuff, that great connection. And I'm exhausted still.
Yes, me do. I also got to meet some of your colleagues that were there for Hypnosis Training as well. So that was fun to get to meet some of your friends. And I'm just giving them a shout out because podcast fan girls. And so I just wanted to say hello to them. It was lovely to see them for a hot minute. I'm sorry that I was so so distracted and overwhelmed. But you were a safe presence the whole conference. And I'm so grateful for you. And I just wanted to say that out loud as well.
Well, thank you. And I was so grateful for you there as well.
Oh, we're so sappy.
Yeah.
Thank you for talking to us today.
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
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