Transcript: Episode 68
68. Mentalizing
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Okay, everybody. Guess what? it's officially been six months since we started podcasting, and we have almost 70 episodes. One is lost. We'll share it if we find it. [Laugh] And this is number 69. So, hello, this is exciting. And so one thing that we need is to renew our website and all the podcasting software. So if you want to go to systemspeak.org and click on the donate button, and help us support our podcast, and to be able to continue podcasting, that would be great. We do want to appreciate and send a shout out to an anonymous donor who was able to get us a new microphone. Which is super great because we were having issues with background noise and other things that were interfering. So I can't promise that we won't ever have background noise because a few of us really like to record outside. But with a new microphone, even that should be better. So hopefully that will help and work. And we continue to be grateful for your support. Using the donate button you can also be an ongoing supporter automatically without having to go back to the website to fill it out again. So check that out. You can see it on the homepage at systemspeak.org, or the podcast page which is systemspeak.org/podcast where all the episodes are listed and described, including trigger warnings for each episode. Thank you for your support.
Now, speaking of support. Here is what we have to talk about: this ginormous therapy workbook that is a nightmare. It's so hard. I don't even know what to say. So last week we were learning all about avoidance. And when we learned about avoidance all we learned is that we're really good at doing it. Like, it turns out we have some pretty mad avoidance skills. Like, we are good at the avoidance department. It's showing up like things we don't want to do, things that we don't want to feel, things that we don't want to say, things that we don't want to be aware of. It’s showing up in every relationship. It's showing up with friends, and with the therapist, and with the husband, and with the children, and things that we have to do, or things that we need to do. All kinds of, I can't even tell you, it's showing up everywhere. But obviously, the area we're focusing on is the therapy stuff. Except what we've learned is the therapy stuff actually influences everything. So the better we get at avoiding things that are therapeutic [Laugh] and difficult and painful, the more like automatic those things become.
So there are some things that we didn't even realize we were doing. But now that we're becoming more aware that we're doing it, we see we do it all the time. It's totally embarrassing and really difficult to kind of stop. But the workbook says we don't have to stop it so much as notice and be aware of it. And so, so the workbook for last week was actually taking avoidance to explain it again by kind of doing the opposite. And so in this workbook we're doing for group called Coping With Trauma-Related Dissociation, it says that the opposite of avoidance is mentalizing. So this is different than maladaptive. Because maladaptive is when you use coping skills that help you survive, like dissociation, but that are not actually effective once you are safe or grown or in a good place. Mentalizing is like the positive version of this, of good coping skills that help you be present or have presence, meaning being aware of who you are, and what you're there to do, and what your function is, and how you're feeling and thinking. And so we're going to talk about that today. Mentalizing.
So mentalizing is the empathetic capacity to reflect on our own inner experience, motivations, intentions, and is essential for overcoming phobia of inner experience. The phobia of inner experience is like the whole avoidance thing about being afraid to learn about the system, being afraid to listen to others inside, being afraid to respond to others inside, being afraid of what others inside do or say or think or feel or remember. But being empathetic to ourselves, and even empathetic to them, which also helps us be empathetic to ourselves, helps us understand our own reactions rather than just being in the middle of them.
So when we start to understand, like, what's happening to us and why we're feeling things that we don't understand, or why we're experiencing things that we don't understand, then that's really scary and it can be kind of terrifying, right? Like flashbacks or nightmares or other kinds of intrusions. But the more that we face them, I don't mean triggering yourself on purpose. Like that can be a thing that is just a setup and makes things too hard, too fast. I don't mean that. I mean, the more that you face what you are experiencing, and by just noticing it and being aware of it and acknowledging it, then the less scary it becomes. But we'll talk about that in a minute. But so it's saying that we will understand ourselves and each other better when we are just aware of it, rather than trying to get away from it.
Mentalizing also teaches us a difference between the automatic responses, like dissociation when something is hard or scary, or running away, or the fight and flight responses, and all of that. Mentalizing helps us, instead of doing those things, mentalizing helps us like choose our own responses. So rather than it being like an impulsive response, or an automatic response that we don't even really have a say in, like this is happening to us, it sort of empowers us to actually consciously think about what's happening, think about what we need in the moment, and consider how we want to respond and what our choices of responses are, and actually choose that.
So like this is actually something we do with the kids. Like, if you imagine a stop sign. In America, it's the red and the white letters across that say stop. So think like the S stands for Stop. The T stands for Think about. The O stands for your Options. And P stands for Plan. So instead of just acting out, or instead of just reacting, or instead of doing what you've always done but isn't actually helping you, stop and think about what your options are how you want to respond, and make a plan to choose how you want to respond differently and how you want to deal with it. It may be that you don't want to deal with it right now. It may be that you want to deal with it later in therapy. It may be that you want to deal with it not at all, or tomorrow, or after something else is already wrapped up, or maybe put it next on the list but not today, that kind of thing. That's okay. Because even if you're still avoiding it in those ways, maybe that's containment, or maybe that's pacing, or maybe that is even really avoidance, but you're actually consciously choosing I cannot deal with this right now. So for example, if something big is happening that we're remembering, or having body memories or something, but it's time to parent, then we've got to find a way to use coping skills and grounding skills and everything we've learned in the last year in therapy to deal with that instead of just falling apart only when it's time for us to be a parent or time to work or time to whatever. So it kind of empowers us in the present rather than abusers in the past still having control over our lives in the present moment. Or feeling like we're caught in this swirl of chaos and confusion that comes with kind of the fog of dissociation, and having a choice and a say in how we respond with it or how we deal with it.
This same skill, this mentalizing skill, the same thing is what helps us understand others more accurately. It helps us feel more secure and more connected and helps us make sense of our own minds and as well as the intentions of others. So for example, the better we get at mentalizing, the better we understand that the therapist has always been there for us, has always responded, has always kept her appointments, has always communicated any time off, has always stayed present with us through hard things, and has always told us that we can come back next week. So the more we’re mentalizing, the more aware of that we are, and we can judge her thoughts and intentions—I don't mean mind reading—but we can judge how, but we can understand that she really means it and that she's authentic, and that her behavior is congruent to what she says.
That's different than when we first started and we couldn't do any of this mentalizing, and so we were afraid that we would say the wrong thing, or she would fire us, or she wouldn't let us come back, or that she wasn't real. It helps even with the derealization in that way, or depersonalization, of Now Time Is Safe, we're actually in her office, her office is safe, she is safe, we can talk to her, no matter what we say we can still see her again next week. It helps put things in context, and kind of solidifies Now Time so that, so that we're not afraid or filtering what's happening now through the memories of the past when other people did not stay, or when other people did hurt us, or when other people did leave us. Mentalizing helps us not apply those experiences to the therapist in the present who has never done any of those things. Does that make sense?
So it helps us to know that it's okay we're having the feelings that we're having, but we're also able to remember that Now Time Is Safe. And it helps us use our coping skills or our grounding skills so that our responses are reflective and we have the power to choose them ourselves, rather than just triggering an automatic response that we don't even really get a say in and is kind of happening to us before we're even aware that it's happening. This puts us back on the offense. Like, we can be proactive about things rather than only reactive, or having to deal with the swirl of symptoms that comes with not having any choice, or not having any power, or not knowing what's going on. Mentalizing helps us know what's going on and how we want to choose to respond to it.
But it takes practice. And what we practice is reflection. It's being in the present, that means we have to be in the present because we can't reflect on what we're not aware of, and we can't be aware of what we're still avoiding. Does that make sense? So I don't mean like, I'm in the kitchen and my child drops a dish and I hear the crash of broken glass, and so then I have a flashback. Like they trigger something, right? So that's still gonna happen as we go through therapy because these kinds of things are just part of what is difficult about DID, and hard and scary about DID. But at the same time, we have grounding skills and coping skills that as we use them and practice them more and more, we can still say, “Now Time is safe, but also I'm having this flashback right now, and this flashback feels super scary, and what happened before was really awful, but also I'm okay right now. Now Time is safe right now. I'm in my house, I'm an adult, I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I have children, I have a therapist, I can text her, I have friends, I could call them. All of the things—pop a peppermint in my mouth—like whatever it takes to stay in the present. And Now Time is safe.”
Now, that doesn't mean we have to ignore sort of that undercurrent of what we experience in a flashback. I can journal about it, we could talk about it again in therapy. But what it's saying is that the more we're aware of what's going on, the more we can actually deal with it in ways that feel safe and helpful, even though it's still unpleasant. So dealing with a memory even in therapy is not fun. It's not like oh, this is a good time, let's go talk about this trauma. It's not fun, but we can contain it a little bit until we get to therapy. We can pace it so that we're not dealing with it before whoever's involved with that memory is ready. We can make sure that all of those who are involved in that memory first know that Now Time is safe, before we talk about things from Memory Time. That way, Memory Time doesn't feel like Now Time as much and we can stay more in the present. But it takes practice. And it's like building any other muscles. And so being in the present is the first part of reflective skills.
And I know that's hard. Like, I'm not trying to make this super simple. Because I know it's a lot harder to actually do. Like, easier said than done, right? We have worked for a whole year just on Now Time Is Safe. And so I know that it's hard. And I know that it's complicated in trying to sort that, and to hold on to that, and to build those muscles. But I also know it's possible. And I also know that you can do it. And that is okay, because Now Time is safe.
The second thing that is part of reflective skills is noticing your inner experience without judgment. This is something I myself am learning right now, and it's really super hard for me. I don't think of myself as a judgmental person, but it turns out I'm really hard on myself and the others inside. So this workbook says to notice what others’ experiences are and how they share them, not to judge them for what they think feel or do, be curious about why they're thinking that or feeling that or doing that, and to ask them questions. Now, because I'm a fan of avoidance, I have to tell you that this seems more challenging. I feel like we've worked really hard in the last year to get the Now Time Is Safe. And we're getting that down. Like, we're getting better at it. We still sometimes need some reassurance, but we can ask for the reassurance, and we get it, and it's confirmed to us and we can hold on to it. But this part about not judging others, or actually being curious about why they're there and what they know, or what their function is, or what they hold? That seems pretty terrifying to me. So it's definitely going to be a challenge for us in the next couple of weeks as we get to know each other kind of in a new way.
The third thing it says as part of reflective skills is noticing similarities and differences between those of us inside. Is noticing similarities and differences. So, similarities and differences amongst the different ones inside, but also similarities and differences between the past and the present. Like what in the present is reminding you of the past? But also, what in the present is different from the past? So the dish may break in the present time, and that may be very similar to what happened in past time, in Memory Time. But what's different is that I am safe, my children aren't going to get hurt, I'm not going to get hurt, I have the husband, I have help, I'm in a safe home, I will still get food to eat, I will still get a bed to sleep in, I will still have privacy, I will still have safety, I will still be loved. All of these things are different in the present than they were in the past. And then also notice the different similarities and differences between yourself and others, inside or external people, as well as similarities and differences between inner fears and external realities.
So one example is today. Today is our therapy day. We're supposed to have therapy today, we're supposed to see the therapist, she promised that we could, we have an appointment, it's our regular day to see her. But we did not get to see her today. The reason we didn't get to see her is because our son had surgery and we still have to be here to take care of him. So externally, that's all that happened. It actually had nothing to do with the therapist at all. What's the same is that I did not get to see the therapist. And the feelings that come up with that, or the sensations that come up with that, or the thoughts that I hear from others about that, are about some being relieved that we don't have to go because therapy is hard. There are some who are angry that we're not getting to go when she said we could, even though it has nothing to do with her. We're the ones that can canceled, she didn't cancel. Some are disappointed because they really look forward to seeing her. Some are sad because we had things specific we wanted to share, and now we don't get to share them or talk to her today. Some are frustrated because we worked really hard on the things that we had prepared to do in therapy today, and now we don't even get to go. And for me, specifically, I feel like every time we miss a week, it takes us back like two or three weeks. Like I know we've been working on specific things these last few weeks in therapy. And I know when we go back to therapy next week, we're not going to be able to work on those things. Like we're going to be back to reestablishing safety and everybody knows Now Time is safe. And we maybe we'll get through that phase a little bit more quickly this time. But it's frustrating because I know missing one week is really like missing two weeks. And so that's progress because missing one week isn't like missing a whole month. We don't have to go all the way back to the beginning. But it's still going to take some reconnection and reassurance before we're able to get back into the rhythm of things. And it's super frustrating in that way. Because we're already working so hard outside of sessions that that's why it feels bad, even if it's not the therapists fault, and even if it's not our fault. Like, it's because it's the right thing. We should be with the children this week. We should be with our son. Like, it is the right thing. No one did anything wrong. But even in that neutral example, there are still big feelings and different perspectives and different opinions about it. And lots of layers to work through.
At the same time, it's different from the past or different externally from some of those fears. The therapist did not cancel our appointment. The therapist is still there if we need her. We still have an appointment for next week. We still have plans to return to therapy. This is not like we've been cut off from all help forever. See, so it helps, it helps address some of that black and white thinking as well as some of the big feelings like fear, anxiety, or confusion about what's going on. But also the more we're able to communicate and explain this is just because the son is sick, and we are being a good mom to stay with him, and we're doing the right thing to be present with the family, we’ve done the right thing to communicate with the therapist, she knows it. So maybe she was able to help other people during our time, or maybe she got some hours to do paperwork, or maybe she got to go in late to work, whatever it is, that everything is actually okay. So it's a good opportunity to practice those new skills.
And that leads to the fourth part of being reflective, which is being empathetic. And being empathetic is for respecting the struggle and the perspectives and what others are going through—whether that's yourself, others outside or others inside—being empathetic to your responses, to your struggles, to your feelings. All of that is part of mentalizing and part of being reflective and present in what's going on.
So that means this week I can guarantee you that the littles are going to be a hot mess. I can guarantee you that JohnMark is going to be really frustrated and sad that he did not get to see the therapist today. I can tell you that Sarah who had things to share with the therapist is going to back off and not pop up for a while. Because if she can't say, or if she's going to get in trouble for saying things—which is not what happened, but it's how she's going to feel—then she's not going to come and talk for a while because it's just that hard to do and to re-establish that. So being empathetic helps me understand their perspectives, rather than only just being irritated with them.
Another example of being empathetic would be, because I understand that, I could also understand that there are other ways to reach out to them and to meet their needs in other ways that are maybe supportive. Like I can't fix that we can't see the therapist today. We can't. I can't undo that. I can't make it happen that we go back in time, stay in the present but go back in time, and still get to see the therapist. Like, it just is. We cannot see the therapist today. There's nothing I can do about that. And we can be disappointed and frustrated and sad. But at the same time, I can connect with them in understanding that they're struggling, and that it's hard, and that I need to be sensitive to them this week. So for example, so for example, JohnMark is all about the snacks, right? So I can make sure that one of the afterschool snacks this week for the outside kids is chips and salsa so that JohnMark gets some salsa and knows that he's being attended to. Sarah and Katie have been doing some specific paintings and were somehow able to connect with something that was helpful and good, and helped them feel connected to the therapist. So we will make sure that Katie, and Sarah, who's often with Katie, that they get time to paint this week, and they get time to play and talk with the painting or whatever it is they do. Like, it's not my thing, I don't know how to do it, I don't have to understand it, I don't have to do it for them, I just need to be present and create the time and space that they are able to do that in. Does that make sense?
So part of being present with that is acknowledging that-. Part being present in all of these ways, and avoiding avoidance by mentalizing, is literally thinking through the steps of what your inner experience is, and staying with it long enough just to be aware. You maybe don't have to deal with it right now. You maybe don't have to fix anything. And maybe you even can't. Like, we cannot go to therapy today. Our therapy time is actually passed at this point. So it's already done. We already missed her this week. But what we can do is recognize that minor situations will feel like major situations. But being proactive about it and empowering ourselves to choose our responses rather than things exploding. We don't need to run away, we don't need to hurt the body, we don't need to panic and think we'll never see the therapist again. This is actually a small thing that's happening. But this small thing is triggering big feelings. And knowing that ahead of time, and knowing that while it's happening, helps prevent some of the bigger symptoms, or some of the bigger acting out, or some of the complicated feelings or perceptions from others inside who maybe feel like that they are not being listened to or getting what they need or able to participate in the ways that they want. It helps meet your own needs for safety and stabilization, but it helps meet their needs for safety and stabilization too. Which benefits the entire system.
So for example, the things to notice in the homework assignment for this chapter. If we're using the example from today that we can't go to therapy, then the situation and perceptions that Emma wrote down were that “Missing therapy is too hard. My family needs me, but I can't function well without therapy. They are interrupting what we've been working on for a few weeks. I won't be able to work on hard things anymore.” So these are not necessarily entirely accurate or true statements because we will be able to work on hard things again in therapy, and the children are not trying to interrupt by needing anything—they're just children. And that's true of the inside kids and the outside kids. And whatever we've been working on in therapy, we'll get back to it when it's time and when we have the space and energy to do that, and it's okay. And missing therapy is hard, but it's not too hard, because we're still here, and we're still okay, and we could still connect with the therapist through the notebook or through text or whatever. And so while those are accurate perceptions, it doesn't mean they have to be the finality of experience. Does that make sense? So when I say those aren't true, I'm not saying that I don't believe the others inside or whoever had those thoughts or feelings. I'm just saying that the bigger picture and the whole system experience put together, that there's more information to it.
So when we focus on the feelings and sensations related to this example, what she wrote was, “I cried for a long time. I was sad, I was angry. I was frustrated. I was overwhelmed.” And let me interrupt to just say that that's a big deal she wrote those things because none of those things were actually hers. Like I could tell you who felt and who did those different things and who those belong to, but they weren't Emma's. But she's recognizing herself as part of the system, and recognizing and acknowledging what she is aware of of what others inside are experiencing. She also wrote some from the littles. “Maybe it was because I was naughty. Maybe it was because the therapist was angry. Maybe it was because I did it wrong or said too much.” That’s Sarah, Sarah is gonna think that. She can hear someone inside crying. I think that’s Sarah. She can feel others who had grown closer back away further. That's also Sarah. So she's definitely tuning into Sarah. She doesn't know that she's tuning into Sarah, but I can tell she's tuning into Sarah because I know Sarah. So for her to write these things is way more aware than what she's been, even if she still doesn't have all the pieces. So this is big. And then she also felt Cassie back. And Cassie being back again is just more of a protective piece, and part of keeping us safe.
So then the next part of the homework assignment asked, “When you became aware and noticed all these things, what did you do about it?” Right? So she wrote that she emailed the therapist to cancel, she avoided telling her how hard it was to cancel. Oh, she avoided telling the therapist how hard it was to cancel. We did not want to cancel. That was a really hard decision. And in fact, some of us didn't know about it when it happened. So it wasn't done entirely well, but it was the right thing. And so on the other side of working through this as a group, we understand why she did it and that it was the right thing. But it's really frustrating. And also, the therapist is just like one of three safe people in our lives, and so it's really hard to just miss getting to see her, besides the therapeutic experience itself, right? She also texted the receptionist to be sure the message got through, to avoid bothering the therapist. And then she stayed busy to avoid her feelings. Oh, and she marked that she heard someone say that. So that was not just her experience, but another insider and she was able to catch it and recognize it. Which is a big deal because in the past she's told the husband that she just hears the noise of us, she can't hear the specific people, or the specific ones of us talking. So that's a big deal that she's starting to differentiate us. I'm trying to be chill with that. Um, in some ways it bothers me a little bit because I think we're just safer if she doesn't know anything. But that's avoidance, right? And not what we're working on. We're working on mentalizing.
Which, by the way, I think is a ridiculous word. There's got to be a better word for it. Maybe it just doesn't translate well. Maybe I'm not understanding it well. It's very specific to Kathy Steele and the people who wrote this book. But I think it's a funky word and that we could come up with a better word. Because it means when I'm avoiding, what is that, “de-mentalizing”? So I don't really like the word mentalizing, but I see where they're trying to go with it.
Anyway, the next question is the reactions of others. So we talked about that some are relieved, some are upset, some, one is angry, one is, some are scared, one wanted to run because it's too much. So that's another good example of something to point out. Because it's not just about missing therapy. It's also about losing the therapist, there are layers of that perception, that we won't get to keep the therapist, because no one has ever kept us before, right? Or we've never gotten to do the keeping of “I choose you as an amazing person. Thank you for staying in my life forever.” Like we've never gotten to do that. But now we have the husband and the therapist, and we're trying to learn how to make friends. And so when we feel that, and think that, and decide, “Okay, therapist, you're on the list of like the top few people that we are letting into the sacred space of our own awesomeness,” then it's hard not to be able to connect with her. Like, we're already geographically distant, so to lose that through time, which is already hard to hold on to, that's just difficult. But at the same time, we also really felt like we needed her because last week was super hard. There were so many triggers last week. I can't even talk about it. Surgery week and, and having the other five children on our own while the husband was at the hospital, or us being in the hospital and in that small room, which is a trigger for us for medical trauma we've had with our daughter and other issues that relate back to our own childhood. Like, there were so many layers of triggers last week and we were exhausted. We were mentally spent, and just really really really struggling, probably the most we've been struggling since Christmas when all of that went down, since the first of the year when all of those things went down in our family. And so, plus it was a holiday weekend, like, there were just so many triggers and so much happening all at once. It was the worst timing for missing the therapist. So that's an accurate perception. But also at the same time, as far as building reflective skills for muscles, like, it was definitely a time to lift some weights and be like, “Okay, we've got this. We are brave and strong because she said so. And now that's in our head and everybody is knowing it. So let's be brave and strong, and we can just make it another week. And it's not that big of a deal, except that it is.” So it's okay to feel both. It's okay to say, “This is a minor thing, but I'm having big feelings about it.” Or “It's a minor thing, but there are lots of us having different feelings about it.” Or “I know that I'm brave, and I know that I'm strong, and I know that I'm awesome, but this is still really hard.” It's okay to say that and to feel that and to think that.
So the next question on reflective skills is about how did they affect behaviors or decisions, those feelings and the responses of others, and all of that that the homework’s already gone through? So she wrote, “We painted, we took a nap outside, we went for a walk instead of freaking out, we also called a friend,” which is the first time we've ever done that in such a direct way, “and we also texted the therapist to make sure Now Time was still safe.” And she did respond to that. And so that was good. That's what we needed, the painting, the sunshine, the nap, we were so tired after being in the hospital all last week. So getting some sleep, doing some self-care, some expression through painting, some connection with nature and sunshine, all of these things helped us feel much better even though we were dealing with the hard things.
And then the last question is about what is the pattern that you notice? So like the pattern of our response to avoidance. The more we become aware of that, the more we can notice like what to do with it or how to deal with it instead of continuing to only avoid or only dissociate. So if we notice patterns, we can start to intervene like in our own behalf and try to make changes and empower ourselves to respond in ways that are conscious and that we're choosing rather than just automatic.
So what Emma wrote was, “I guess the pattern from before would be to disengage instead of connecting and to hide instead of asking for help. But instead, I found ways to express myself through painting, and to connect by contacting the therapist and calling our friend, and instead of isolating more, or dissociating as much. So we handled this hard thing this week way better than we handled everything that happened when we missed a bunch of weeks because of snow and holidays at the end of last year.” So this was huge. Yes, it was still hard. It doesn't take away that this was still hard. But we handled it better and differently than in the past. And that's what makes us rock stars.
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