Transcript: Episode 386
386. Piece by Piece
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
I am finally starting to feel better. It has really been a rough couple of months in lots of ways. And I have missed you in the community. I hope that by the time this airs I will be back in the community on a regular basis, and getting to see your beautiful faces in groups. I miss you. I really, really do. And it's been tricksy, not bad. It's just my work, being deployed. And then also we had COVID. And then we had to finish our deployment, which we will then transition to virtually. So it's been like we have been all over the place. So if you missed me, I missed us too. It has just been a lot. It has been a lot.
But one of the things that happened was that we got to go to the Denver regional conference for ISSTD. And we got to meet four community members. And it was so fun to meet them in real life. I got to spend a lot of time with two of them. And it was just so nourishing to my soul to feel these friendships blossom and experience all the deep conversations that we had, the laughing that we shared, and the adventures in this bizarre hotel that we were in. That was like a different theme on every floor. So there was like a Pac Man floor. There was a music floor. There was a horror floor that we did not go check out. There was a sci fi floor. It was just so fun. We just had so many adventures. And maybe it's okay that we couldn't do everything. Maybe that's part of what we're learning and pacing. And what we did get to do was exactly right.
One of the adventures that we had was that I got asked out on a date. You guys, I was shocked. And it was so funny. I mean, look at this. You know me? Does it look like I have been asked out on a date anytime recently? Or that I was expecting that? No, I don't think so. So well, it was pretty bizarre. And it was pretty funny. And not just bizarre because people have feelings. Like, I get that that is not bizarre, and I am not shaming that at all. What is bizarre was that I didn't know this person at all. And it has been a long time since we had a random pickup line. Oh my goodness. So here's the thing, though, it actually brought up a lot of really good conversations that we had. And I wanted to talk about this a little bit because I feel like I can't be the only one experiencing this.
So sometimes this can happen in therapy, when it's called transference. Sometimes that transference can happen with friends or in other relationships. But you know how when you're in a relationship, whether it's a friendship—I don't mean necessarily a romantic one, but any kind of relationship—that brings up the wounds from the past, right? Which is why we need each other for healing. Because it's connection that helps resolve some of those things and heal some of those things. But we practice that together, the healing part. And we work out the hard stuff in therapy, right? Like, I know that groups or Zoom is not the time for trauma details, or trauma, bonding, or getting sucked into those triangles of rescuer, victim and perpetrator. And so I understand that, and I'm aware of that. But we also know that stuff just comes up in relationships because we are practicing. And I feel like when we are able to talk about things and do healthy repair, or healthy conversations, then we're really able to work through things and recognize what's going on and what it's really about. Because we are not just animals. I mean, we are mammals. But animals need shelter, they need food, and they need reproduction. Those are all animal impulses, because survival depends on those things.
So as mammals, we also want shelter, and food and reproduction. And that means having an innate biological drive for sex, right? And sex is amazing. There's nothing wrong with saying that. But also we're humans. Which means we have agency. Which means we have the capacity to choose when to have sex, when not to have sex, how far to go into making out with somebody, or what boundaries to set about that, when or where, what is the place we're comfortable with, what is the timing we're comfortable with.
And then the most important piece is consent. So obviously, those of us with sexual abuse in our past have had consent violated. It's not okay. So now those of us who have dissociation, because of trauma, end up having lots of layers. Like, this can be a really complicated thing to talk about. So please forgive me if I don't do it gently enough, or if I don't cover your particular experience, because all of us are different.
But something that happens with a lot of us, I think, are that just like other issues like big feelings or memories, our experiences with sex and with abuse that involved sexual abuse, these aspects of ourselves kind of get split up into different parts sometimes. And I really still struggle with parts, but I don't know what else you would say. So you know what I'm talking about, though, right? And so there may be parts of you that really, really like sex. There may be parts of you that really, really don't like sex. There may be parts of you that are curious or interested, but also afraid or cautious. And there is, just like with any other things, whether that's memories or big feelings, there are, there may be some kind of gatekeeping system that helps you as a whole know when to do this, or when not to do this, or who you can do it with. All of those things. And that is part of living your life.
But this experience here, which my friends found very funny. It was not a funny guy. Okay, it was a little bit funny. My experience with this brought up so much in our conversation. And so I just wanted to talk about this a little bit. Because in this example I obviously declined the date. I did not accept the date. Because first of all, the husband, which I'll talk about in a minute. Lucky him. I'm going to talk about him again. But second of all, this person only knew me through the podcast. They have not even come to zoom groups or anything. We have not built any kind of friendship or relationship. So even if the husband was not in the picture, or even if I was completely available, and maybe even therapeutically available to do anything I want, I would still have to decline this person because they were fawning about the podcast. Which means they cannot actually consent to that sort of relationship. And consent is everything. So I obviously, when this situation actually happened I declined the proposition. Although Thank you, I do say I am just not in the position to be available for that for like 100 reasons right now. But thanks for the very forward offer. That was very brave. So for 100 reasons, I declined this particular opportunity. But it brings up a lot of questions that I really do need to be looking at and talking about and discussing, and exploring and figuring out for myself.
So in my own particular life, besides any childhood issues, I did not date in high school. I did not date in high school. Like, at all. I completely 100% avoided it because of everything that was going on around me. In college I was in that difficult situation, which you know about because of previous episodes, and I was not in a place to be dating. I wasn't interested in dating. And there was more abuse going on into my adulthood, which I think we don't talk about enough and maybe need to come back to for a whole different episode. But because of that abuse there, it is also true that there were parts of me that were very activated and very much exploring sexuality, and acting out in ways that I think we thought were about relationships. but were not really because these people didn't care for us. There was no relationship happening. It was like we confused them being possessive over us as them choosing us. It was domestic violence situations, it was dating alcoholics, like all of these things were really, really not good for us and made our life way more complicated than it had to be.
And somehow, looking back, this is just in hindsight, with the pieces I can have access to, trying to reflect on all of that and what happened, I feel like that, in some ways, our system responded to these experiences in different ways. One thing that happened is that we just kind of developed this very extreme aversion to male bodies. Now, one thing I love about the Community is that we have, over the last two years, really developed some healthy friendships with very safe and good and kind male bodied friends. And I am very grateful to them. I think it's unfortunate that there's so much pressure on them to be so sensitive and safe because so many other men have abused that. And we know that women can be abusers too. And so to know that we have male bodied friends who have been abused by females, who have been abused by males, whatever their story is, in different ways. Like we can't just make assumptions about gender. And so having male friends over the last few years, and now I actually have a lot of friends who are male body friends, that have been really good and kind and safe. And I really, really love having them in my life. So he thinks that we've come a long, long way with this, like, my life, my world, is a better place for having these men in my life.
And then the husband, obviously, you know him. You've heard him on the podcast. This is very authentic. It is very him. It's not edited, like he is just like that. He is safe. He is kind. He thinks he's funny. He is so supportive. Like, I can't tell you how good he has been to me in so many ways. And so I love that we have come from this place of aversion and avoidance of men, to having so many good men in our lives. So a shout out to all the good males because I love you so much. I am so grateful for you. There are just, it has changed my whole world. I just, I mean it. Seriously, my life is better because you are in it and I am so glad you are here. I'm so grateful for your participation in my life and in the lives of those around you. So thank you for being in the world, truly.
And it's funny to even be talking about this because this morning in United States today is Fathers Day. So, so it's kind of extra special. I mean, I know it won't still be Father's Day by the time this episode airs, but I just, I want to hold space for the good male-bodied people in this world, and just truly express my gratitude.
But as I navigated those early years and trying to find my way to safety, one thing that I really thought would be helpful was if I were only with women. I even lived in a women's commune for a while. Like, you don't understand. I thought I could just escape the world of men altogether. And out of this, like I really, I really tried hard to find a relationship that would be stable and safe and would last. And I feel like from each relationship I learned something that helped me. This is so hard to talk about. But I think that each relationship helped me learn something that I took with me into the next relationship so that that one was a little bit better.
But it took me a long time to realize that an underlying current was that I kept dating alcoholics. And that wasn't going to work, whether you're straight or gay, or anything. And so they were really violent. And it was a really traumatic time in my life. And I don't want to go into those details. But it was very, very difficult for me. And part of that difficulty meant I kept ending up in situations where I had to run away to be safe. So we kept reinforcing this flight response. Like, I didn't know it was a flight response at the time, where even ultimately, that I just ultimately actually just left the country. But I continued exploring these relationships and learning from each thing. So I knew that I did not want to be married to a man. And finally, after several difficult experiences, and years and years of trying to muddle my way through adulthood, I realized I also could not be with an alcoholic that was going to like physically abuse me or fight or scream at me all the time. I could not do those things.
So I had a lot of really, really hard experiences. But that also included not being accepted or approved by my family, which was really happening anyway. But being a part of the GLBT community really kind of just made things worse with my family. And there was more misattunement. And so I struggled more and made more of a mess of things, which just reinforced what they already thought of me. Like, it was just the spiral and I couldn't fix it. And it was such a difficult season because I had my own traumas during those experiences as well. The domestic violence relationships, obviously, that's trauma. But I also had a lot of trauma in the GLBT community. Like, I had some really difficult experiences. So it made it hard to feel connected there, when even there I felt rejected. Or even there, I felt abused. Like, where was safety?
I also have a lot of grief, and violations and betrayals and some of those experiences that I don't need to get into right now. But that were really, really difficult. And ultimately, I just needed to take a break and not date anyone for years. So then there was this extended period of time where I was not dating anyone because I needed to get to know myself more than I realized, and heal things with me, instead of expecting someone else in a relationship to heal me. And that seriously was one of the best decisions I ever made as an adult.
During the same years I was also exploring my faith. I had grown up with some religious abuse in a very conservative evangelical kind of religion, and I wanted to make my faith my own. And that required sorting out who I thought God was, and the difference between that and people who badly represent their version of God. And I had to untangle those pieces, which is really hard. And I'm not going to get into that right now. But what I mean is it was definitely an identity exploration kind of phase in my life that was not just about sexuality or orientation or things like that. And so faith is actually very, very important to me. And I did a lot of studying. I went to synagogue. I learned Hebrew. I had already learned Catholicism from an adoptive family. And this history of saints and scribes and people who devoted their lives to try to pass on goodness in the world just intrigued me, and layers of ancient wisdom intrigued me. And I studied, and I studied, and I studied. And ultimately the faith tradition I ended up choosing was one that had some practical benefits for me, like supporting my sobriety, but also had some more spiritual pieces that were really important to me, like acknowledging some version of the feminine divine. So all of these things were really important to me.
And then when we met the husband, I was able to marry him, or that part of us who married him did so for three reasons. One, he was good and kind and safe. And we had not found safety with anyone, okay, so we were not going to let go of that when we found that. And number two, in that church we could get married in full freedom of being ourselves without any distress because our family literally were not allowed inside the building, which is something we had literally worried about and been anxious about since we were a young child. And not just because of abuse or something, but our family does not get along with each other. And then we were always in the middle between the tension of them and the arguments of them and the drama of them and then wanting the scoop on the other side. We were always stuck in the middle. And this would be a moment that could be ours without any of that. And then the third reason was he was very sexually safe. Now, what I understand now is a term like Ace, right. But because of this, which I didn't know the words at the time, I don't know if that was around, maybe it was around by then. But because of this, and I knew this about him, I chose it intentionally because there was no pressure on me sexually. And there was no, I wasn't going to have to do anything I didn't want to do, and I wasn't going to be violated, which had happened regardless of the gender I had dated, or who I had been with. And so this was everything. And I was not going to let go of that. It was absolutely the best relationship I've ever had. It still is the best relationship I've ever had. And so I'm grateful to him. He has always been very safe. He has never raised his voice at me. He has never done any kind of name calling or threatening. He has never physically hurt me. He has never touched me or violated me, or initiated anything without my consent. He has never done anything like that. But he also absolutely helped change diapers. He absolutely takes turns cooking. He helps clean up. He helps with the children. Like, he is everything that I needed in those ways. And I am grateful for him. And you all know how amazing he is. So I'm thinking everything is fine.
Until a couple of months ago in the middle of therapy my therapist randomly says to me, as if I was looking for trouble, she randomly says to me, “When are we going to talk about you and your husband both being gay, and what is that like for you? Because it's a lot of loneliness to carry.” Now, let me reassure you I was not feeling lonely until she said that. I was not worried about it until she said that. And so what we've been talking about in therapy is how safety is not the same as nourishing, and not being harmed is not the same as being tended to. Now again, let me be clear, you know him he tends to me in many ways. So how do you navigate that? And therapeutically, when the more progress you make in healing, the more parts of us start coming online, and it disrupts present day functioning and choices in ways that are challenging. And that is all kinds of things.
Emma, the one, you know, is Emma, we haven't seen since 2019. And she's the one who married him. Now, maybe that's because he's not been living here. Maybe when he comes back, she'll come back. Like, I don't know how that works. But in the meantime, what do we do about that sexual expression? Or sexual connection? Or something? Like, is it, am I going to just abandon him? No. Am I going to do anything that would hurt him or her or them? Or that he wouldn't know about? Absolutely not. My priority is caring for him and being safe for him. In the same way he has been safe for me. But also, I know that having animal needs because I'm a mammal doesn't mean I have to be driven by those impulses. I am also a human who has agency to choose how and when those impulses are expressed, in what context? And what those boundaries and what that safety is going to look like for me. So they are big questions. And I've talked about all of this with him. I've talked about all of this with the therapist.
And it is just fascinating to recognize that these issues are there. Like, I can't just pretend that they're not there. I can't just ignore them until they go away. That's not how it works. So are they difficult topics, sensitive topics, and in lots of ways very private topics? Yes. And so it is difficult, but I cannot just avoid it. And it's hard. Because then, because then like with transference, when you start building relationships and you start building friendships, that can trigger some of those feelings because you have this deep intimacy you're building in these friendships. And remember, intimacy is not about sex. Intimacy is taking time together and nonsexual touch. Healthy sex, unless you're choosing a different kink, or something that is consensual to all parties, healthy sex comes out of those three T's, it comes out of those layers of intimacy, it is a result of those aspects of intimacy. Right.
So as we start spending time together in zoom groups or building friendships, as we start talking about vulnerable things and being responsive to each other, it is very natural that all kinds of feelings get triggered or come to the surface because it's a natural response to intimacy. But it doesn't have to be eroticized. And people don't have to be objectified. But it's tricksy because that is what was done to us. When we were abused, especially for those of us who were sexually abused specifically, it makes sense that some kind of closeness or when we start to feel empowered, that that would sometimes be associated with having the power the way our abusers had power, and so connected with romantic or sexual feelings towards someone. Because when we were little, that's what was associated with any kind of care or closeness.
But here's the thing: That was not care or closeness. That was abuse. And we as adult humans don't have to reenact with others what was done to us. And in fact, sometimes when you really care about someone you can express that love to them by not doing to them what was done to you.
I was talking about this with my friends this weekend. And one of the things that one of them said was it makes sense that when you start to have those feelings of safety and those feelings of connection, that you would want to act on it more. As if you could hold it in your hand, if you hold the person, if you can claim the person like this reaching out. You guys, that's an attach cry. You're reaching out trying to make them stay, trying to make it permanent, trying to make it more real than it already is. But that is not about sex with that person. That is not about romantic feelings with that person. That is about the depth of emptiness, and loneliness, and neglect that has been within you needing to be filled and waiting to be filled. But sex is not the answer to that. Sex is not going to solve that. Sex will not make that go away. Romantic feelings, or sex, any of that is not what fills that hole. And that hole can't just be ignored. You can't just fill it up and pretend it was never there.
That hole needs to be grieved, that you were neglected or violated or abused, whether it was relational trauma or physical trauma or sexual trauma. Those violations need to be honored and grieved and acknowledged to be healed. And part of that grief is that it can never be undone. What has happened and what didn't happen is already in the past. It's already there. But it doesn't make you wrong for needing care. It doesn't make you wrong or bad for feeling big feelings, even of attraction. But when you feel those feelings, that means not that you need to act on it with sex, it means that you're experiencing attunement at a different level or in a different place than you have in other times when you're in relationship, whatever is coming to the surface, that's what's going to be tended to and healed. And those of us with trauma from our childhood have these kinds of violations. And that's going to be part of what is brought to the surface. And that does not make you wrong or bad, or even rejected.
It's okay to say, “Wow, I am experiencing this. And I don't know what it means, I don't know what to do with it. Here's my context, here's what I'm feeling.” And to work with your therapist about what is coming to the surface, to talk it out, to process it, to hold space for those things, for those parts, and see what purpose they serve or what information they're giving you. And with whoever your partner is, if you have one, to have conversations about “here's what I think I need even though I didn't need it yesterday,” or “here's what's not okay with me because I am tending to this and now in a relationship I need you to attend to it also.” And what that looks like when you have different parts that are genders or different parts that are different orientations or all those kinds of struggles. All of that's valid. But if you just hold space and honor what's there, and communicate about it if you're in a relationship or with your therapist, or both healing, that the pieces will fall into place.
I don't know yet what that is looking like. But are there all kinds of things that you sacrifice for a relationship when you care about someone? Yes. Can you do that in healthy ways that honor your commitments? Yeah, I think you can. So what is that going to look like for me? I don't know yet. I'm still in the middle of it. But I can explore what I need to resolve this or to feel better about this. Or to look at these pieces my therapist brought to the table without harming the people around me, or without betraying someone who has been kind to me, or without violating someone else's capacity to consent. These are big and important issues, and not at all what I thought would be the topic of conversation this weekend. But here we are.
And even worse, it's a holiday that I don't particularly enjoy or appreciate. And I'm not even at home with my family. So while I may have my own issues with Father's Day, my husband himself, who is a father because of the outside kids, is literally at home caring for all of them by himself, and his parents, so that I can be away and do my thing too. Which is a lot of love. And so this is what I posted for him. I'm writing this waiting for another plane in the middle of somewhere, wearing my mask and trying not to get COVID again. Because I have time and space and words are coming. I'm writing. It’s what we do.
Maybe I'm scared. Maybe I'm brave. Maybe I just want to be sure my children know my words. Maybe it's all I have to offer him. Because it is today. Today, 10 years ago, is when I met him. His cousin let me work at Family Services for three years before he actually introduced us, like some kind of modern Jacob and Rachel kind of deal. When I replied to that first tweet-. I'm no longer on Twitter, by the way, so don't even try to find me there. I'm not there. When I replied to that first tweet, it was mostly a joke, because my office mates were teasing me. And we were laughing at my miserable attempts at dating and what a disaster it had been. Except he replied. And it was funny. And the banter became emails, and the emails became phone calls, and the emails kept coming. Every day he rode the train to work, him in New York City, and we still in Oklahoma, and he spent his train time crafting me the most amazing love letters. Not just fluff, but real and deep and authentic in ways that build safety and communication and relationship, not just superficial delight. We needed that foundation. We knew our relationship was built on being apart. And we knew from the beginning that it would be a thing. When our whirlwind courtship was so very magical and miraculous, we knew it was to steal us against the hardship that would come even if we didn't know yet what that hardship would be. We knew from the beginning that mortality was barely relevant, that our relationship was eternal, that it had always been hard, that it still would be hard. And that mortality was nearly to put into practice what had been asked of us, which was mostly about service to those in crisis and care for those who had no one. And all of that had little to do with ourselves or any kind of honeymoon period. A week. We got a week. We were sealed together in a holy temple of God and ran away for one week. That's the week we spent filling out foster care paperwork, not knowing that eighty-one children would come and go over the next five years, or that six others would stay. And after that week, he flew back to New York City to finish his commitments there. I stayed for our first miscarriage alone, while he endured Hurricane Sandy. My father died of cancer. The husband came home for Christmas. My mother was killed by a drunk driver. Then we lost our second baby at 14 weeks, and our third at 16 weeks. And the fosters started coming. By our first anniversary, both my parents had died, the husband had been laid off, a musical production fell through, we lost four babies, and we had nine children in our home. And the next year, we would go through all the fertility testing drama only to discover that the problem was that I had cancer. At the same time we received the children who would someday be ours. I don't like the possessiveness of saying “ours.” And the next year, I would go into remission barely in time for our oldest to get her cochlear implants, the adoption starting to happen, and our youngest to be born. And then without any notice, I was on a helicopter with her and what began five years ago hospitals. Cancer came back. I got called to chaplaincy. He went away for productions. We took turns in hospitals. All of our children met developmental milestones jumping over oxygen cords and pacing our days around G-tube feedings. And then the pandemic, which for us meant two years of quarantine until our youngest could be vaccinated. And a year into that he moved into his parents to care for them, which he prayed with hope to do since he was very young. I know because I've read those journals. And the year and a half since he's been gone, he still emails me a love letter every night, just like he used to write me on the train each morning.
For 10 years, we have endured hard things, one after another. For 10 years, we have been driven through the wilderness as we had to move from hospital to hospital, and sell all of our property to pay for it. For 10 years, we have taken turns single parenting and working and keeping our children alive and our own heads above water. For 10 years, he has stayed. And that is everything. He has never quit or complained or left me in this mortal mess. He has never been cruel to me, raised his voice at me, or touched me in any way that made me uncomfortable or without my consent. He has never argued or name called or been mean. He has told some seriously eye-rolling dad jokes. This is different for me, the care and tenderness he provides. This is different for me, someone staying. This is different for me, living in a world of grace and kindness and gentleness. It's not how I grew up. And that's why I hate holidays like Mother's Day or Father's Day. They are brutal and insensitive cultural celebrations for those of us from or in difficult situations. But him, 10 years of him, that's something we're celebrating. Except, of course, I'm not even at home.
So in an attempt to actually offer something back and be responsive, and show some appreciation, I made this dorky video. Starting with my family of origin and our struggles with flat and distressed faces, and transitioning to the light and laughter and love he has brought to my chosen family now. Not to shame me or my family, but to show the difference, to show the healing. Because if Husbands are to, quote, “provide and protect,” end quote, I want the world to know that I know exactly what he has protected us from by loving us well and tenderly and gently. And I want the world to know that what he has provided was exactly what I needed. And it's been far more powerful and internal than any amount of money a fancy desk job could provide.
So I'm just saying, don't compare. Your story is your own. Your family is your own. You do you, boo. And if it's a hard weekend for you like it is for me, I am so very sorry. Truly, I highly suggest skipping church on this one of two Sundays a year, staying off social media all weekend, and running away to a warzone. Highly effective, 10 out of 10, I recommend. And if you, like him, have your own awesome dad, then good for you; celebrate your guts out. Or if you, like so many friends I have made in my own healing journey, are one of those good and safe and tender men in the world, 1000 therapy points to you and all of my gratitude, truly. And if you, like me, struggled to find and reclaim a world you've never known, a childhood you never got to experience or any inkling of parental care even in your adult life, keep looking carefully, cautiously wisely.
Good people are out there. I promise. And when you find them you will have 100 mothers and 100 fathers, and you will learn to be your own mother and father and you will heal whether anybody else likes it or not. I promise. So this video is just to say thank you to him. Because I'm not even home, of course, naturally. So this is the best I could do. And all this happened after being separated once again, after the emotional weeks of being super scary COVID sick and landing in and out of war. So that's what I wrote for him and posted in the middle of this mess while I was declining a date in another state, and all of the craziness that this is with the very real issues that come up in relationships and transference and in healing. I use the Kelly Clarkson song Piece by Piece, which I had never heard until only recently and recorded it and put it together as a video, like I said, with pictures from my family of origin where everyone's faces are flat and stressed and then transitioning as the lyric say “to him who stayed.” I'll play the song here, but obviously it's a podcast so you can't see the video. But maybe I'll post the video in the Community too. If you all are comfortable with that you can let me know.
But what I want you to know is that no matter what comes up as we build relationships you are still safe, and good boundaries are part of what keep us safe. And you're not wrong for having feelings come up in any kind of transference in relationships. But it's information and you can explore that in therapy and you can use your agency with how to respond to that whether to act on it or not. And how to tend to yourself in ways that are healthy and good. That's part of what keeps you safe. That's part of being an adult with adult resources even when that means working together, communicating inside and looking at struggles and issues you maybe didn't even know were there. But doing so is what gets us to the other side, even if it's rough water sometimes.
[Piano and singing of Kelly Clarkson’s Piece by Piece]
[Break]
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