Transcript: Episode 95
95. Recovering
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
So we have obviously been struggling with our homecoming from Africa, and again, I want to be really careful about talking about it, not because the podcast is the place to process trauma, we get that, we know that, but I don’t want to just bad talk Africa, because Africa itself is amazing. And the people in Africa are amazing. And also that’s an entire continent. We were in Ghana specifically, and the people who made bad choices there were specific people, just like in America, the specific people who made bad choices here does not make all of America bad.
And so we want to be really clear about that, because the people of Ghana and of other places we’ve been in Africa are very close to our heart, and they are amazing. And so I want to be very clear that we are not just hating on Africa, because we love them. And what was hard that happened to us, it does not have the power to change or take away from all of the good that happened in Africa.
So, that’s part of what we’ve been dealing with, just continuing to process. Physically we’ve been trying to recover. We’re sleeping a lot still. We didn’t get to sleep while we were there. We were super dehydrated while we were there, not having enough food and water and so our body is still recovering. And there is a lot of -- there is -- I don’t even know what I was talking about. So there are a lot of hard things about the physical recovery, not just sleeping and water, but also just the intake of food, which was already a trigger for us, but then not having it has caused some physical problems we’re still recovering from.
So, I don’t mean at all to whine, and I don’t mean at all to complain. We’ve just been knocked down a couple of notches for functioning temporarily. So that has not been very fun and not very pleasant and just trying to keep food in and down, and trying to get rehydrated. We did get fluids from the hospital, as did our daughter. And we’ve seen our doctors now and the therapist, which we talked about a little bit. So, we are doing our best. We are starting to sleep through the night a little bit, not completely, and the nightmares are getting a little bit better as far as normal nightmares. Like we had nightmares anyway, right? So now having a new reason for nightmares is hard, but our daughter is sleeping through the night again, and is a little less clingy. So we’re all making progress, and it’s just going to take some time.
So I’m sorry for the disruption of the podcast. The other thing that’s happened that interrupted the podcast is we lost an interview. [Laughs] It was terrible. You guys, we had the best discussion about DID with one of the most amazing people on DID and the absolute top researcher on DID, and the only person who is doing new research on DID, and that is Bethany Brand. And we had the best discussion with her and a wonderful episode recorded and then a storm zapped us and we lost us, and it is heartbreaking. Even if I could get another hour of her time, we could not re-record or recreate that level of awesomeness, and it is a terrible tragedy. I don’t even know what to say about it. It is just heartbreaking, and so we lost that episode entirely, and I have let her know. So hopefully we could maybe talk to her again in the future, but obviously her schedule is really busy and she is very hard to book. And so I don’t know when that will be, and I’m just very disheartened over the whole thing, and it was absolutely one of my favorite conversations I’ve ever had in my entire life. It was so, so good.
So, [sigh] that was hard and that was sad. And then something else happened [laughs] -- I’m sorry, this is our list of whining. It’s just been a really hard couple of weeks. There’s something else that happened that I don’t want to go into in detail just because it’s not our story, and then the part of our story that is our story, we really don’t want to talk about on the podcast. So you know like in the general abuse dynamic, how often abusers, especially abusers of children, will say in some form or another, “If you don’t do what I want, then this is going to happen.” Like some kind of threats or things to sort of manipulate or coerce you into doing things with them. So, I don’t want to talk about that in more detail, obviously.
But we had, growing up, one consistent threat that was always held over us. And I’m sorry that I can’t be more explicit with it right now, it’s just not appropriate. But that thing that we’ve been afraid of our whole life, happened to someone in the therapist's family. [Laughs] It’s not funny, you guys. Oh my goodness. I’m not laughing because it’s funny, because it’s horrible, except everything’s okay, but I’m laughing because what else can really happen right now? [Laughs]
This month started out with tornadoes [laughs], and then we were kidnapped in Africa [laughs] and then we came home [laughs] and this has happened to the therapist's family [laughs] and it’s not at all funny. Oh! [Laughs] It’s not at all funny, it’s that “Are you kidding me? How can this be our life? How can this actually be happening?” So that’s been really difficult, because there’s a whole entire circle, on the inside, in the inner world, the other Alters, whatever you want to call them, who are basically working under the premise or under the assumption or thinking whatever, that this has happened to the therapist’s family, because we were talking. And so because we were telling secrets, and because we were telling stories, now they are coming to punish us. This is not true. It had nothing to do with us, and actually, everything’s okay in that situation. Which again, I’m sorry I can’t be more details, but what happened to her family is not my story, and what is our story is not appropriate for the podcast.
So, [laughs] I’m being intentionally vague and it’s not at all funny, except that emphasis point, whatever. [Laughs] I don’t care. I don’t even know what to say, or how to explain. There’s nothing left in me. I have no coping skills left. In fact, we even tried -- someone gave us money to take the children swimming, and the reason that’s important is because we have six children. So for our family to go swimming, it costs $48, [laughs] which is a frivolous expense that we do not have the budget for. [Laughs] And so someone gifted us a one day swimming pass for $48 that we could go to the pool and just relax with the children at the public pool and have a swimming day and enjoy ourselves and try to help everybody relax, work off some cortisol, and all of these kinds of issues. Right? It’s supposed to be -- it was just supposed to be fun. And that’s great, except that we were not worried about the sun because of Africa. When we were in Africa, we got cooked. It is hot in Africa [laughs]. Let me just tell you, it is hot in Africa. And then also, the sun is so bright. We were right there on the equator, and so we were just red, red, red and cooked and already tanned up by the time we got home. So we were not worried about the sun at the pool, except what we did not think about is the little diamond cut out on the back of our swimsuit, which was not exposed in Africa. And so we literally got a second degree sunburn [laughs] with blisters on our back [laughs]. I can’t! So now we cannot lay down or sit down against anything. And also we’re still recovering from Africa with nightmares and trying to get enough fluids and trying to keep food down and in us. And all of these things, plus what happened with the therapist’s family, which has nothing to do with us, but people perceive, people inside, perceive it as we caused it. And I just can’t even, you guys. [Laughs] I’m done. [Laughs] I’m so done. [Laughs]
None of it’s funny. I’m trying to use humor as a coping skill, but there’s nothing left except to just laugh at the ridiculous level of what has just happened. I just…I can’t even. I can’t even. So here’s what we’re going to do, just so that I can breathe so that we as a team and as a system can breathe, I’m just going to read your emails, because your emails have literally kept us alive for the last month, and we are so grateful for our friends and for the supporters and our listeners and for those who have tried to be so helpful and encourage us. And so we’re going to share these messages, because everything else is falling apart. [Laughs] And we have now made it to Oklahoma, and we will have therapy tomorrow. So hopefully everything will be fixed, and everything will be fine after that. Right? Yeah.
Okay, so let’s read some emails!
This email is from Willow, from the Raven Stone Collective. They say, “This has been such an informative and amazing resource for us. Thank you so much for sharing the different perspectives. We have different Ones in our Collective that can relate to different Ones in your all System, so it’s really neat to hear from the different perspectives, because there are different Ones that several of us can relate to.”
I love this and it’s so true. And the people that we have met and the friends that we have made, this has been consistent with everybody, that it’s like for the first time, everyone kind of has their own friends and as a collective or as a whole or as a system, were being able to integrate that into the experience more openly for the first time. And I feel like that’s huge. There’s change in that. Something about what we’ve learned about healing coming through connection, this is a taste of it, and I really appreciate it.
They said, “Many of us relate to Emma and how she struggles with this. Most of us like quiet, like she seems to as well, but we have Ones inside the rest of us sometimes find annoying.”
Oh, I think this is me! Maybe I already read this one and it was just so good I had to save it for myself! [Laughs] I’m the annoying one.
“That the rest of us sometimes find annoying that can really enjoy and relate to Sasha in some ways. It’s neat how authentic and open Sasha is as she is unapologetically herself, which we really admire. Sage really enjoys the guests Dr. E brings on. I don’t always like those episodes, because I tend to be triggered by clinicians and scientific perspectives. So I can’t always really take it in the way that Sage can. When I do, I try often to relisten so many times and still sometimes, I can’t really get it.”
And that’s okay, I think. I can’t listen to Dr. E episodes, either! [Laughs] But some people don’t like my episodes. So that’s cool, whatever. If it works for Sage and it’s helpful for Sage, then kudos to Dr. E and Sage for being able to link up in that way and to be able to learn together in their own world. Right?
“But I did really enjoy a few of them. I really enjoyed Susan Pease Banitt and Jane Hart. I got a lot out of both of those guests and their podcasts.”
That’s so true. They are both amazing. Really, really appreciate them being on. And Susan Pease Banitt has shared so much, and we appreciated talking to her twice on the podcast, and then our friend, Jane, as well.
They said, “I was really intrigued to see you had Dr. Pat Ogden on, because the therapist we get to see in the future works with Hakomi and sensorimotor as some of his main approaches. We are terrified to work with the body, so it was very familiar and validating to hear her talk about how hard it can be to be in the body, and how our body is the enemy, because that’s how we experience our body. We have so much hatred towards our body now, but we hope someday this approach can help us see it differently. We appreciate that even though this approach emphasizes the body, it also moves us slowly and gently as the client needs. I honestly can not imagine ever seeing the body as an ally like she describes, but I know the therapist we want to see sees it as possible. And hearing Dr. Ogden say the same thing just felt strange. We want to feel hopeful, but right now it feels impossible. But we are willing to some day try with someone we can learn to trust.”
I think that’s powerful. I think it’s okay to say, “This is really hard.” I think it’s okay to admit when something feels more difficult than it feels possible. I think that just makes us human. I don’t think it means we’re failing therapy. And I think if and when we are ready, and if and when we have a good helper, like a good clinician, a good therapist, then it will happen, when we are ready, and we have the right support. And so it’s okay and even protective to wait until then, you know, so that makes perfect sense.
They said, “Thank you so much for sharing all these perspectives from so many knowledgeable guests. And thank you for sharing your own life experiences and your own struggle with coming to terms with this from different Ones in your system. It’s so validating for us and helps us feel less alone and has helped some Others of us inside who need to hear from someone more like them, to relate to, instead of from us, because we’re so different from them.”
That makes total sense and I’m so glad you shared your story. Thank you.
This is from our friend JC, who wrote in before, and we talked to our friend Dr. Barach about her question. And they said, “We just listened to the podcast in which you and Dr. Barach answered our questions about regression, and we just wanted to thank you so much for passing our question on so it could be addressed. It meant so much to us. After listening to it twice so we could process everything in it, it gave us a lot of comfort and hope that this is a normal reaction and it does not mean we are getting worse. It also gave us some internal validation that working toward what we had before, which is our goal, and not getting rid of People, is the right path for our system.”
That’s so true. I was so glad that you asked your question, because we did talk about it with Dr. Barach. And then when we had so many things happen that were difficult in our life, and outside of our control, we felt prepared to handle it differently than we would have been had you not asked the question. And so I want to say, “Thank you so much to JC and the rest of you” who has such good questions, because having that knowledge and those coping skills and just understanding what was happening, that we are not necessarily falling apart or regressing or going backwards, things are just extra hard right now. And as we get through this season of things being extra hard, we will be able to pull together a little more quickly than before. We will be able to return to functioning a little more before… a little more quickly than before. And it doesn’t mean we’ve lost ground, it just means that we are sort of at our limit of being able to function and we are going to default settings, but will be able to bounce back differently. So, there’s some hope in that, even while there’s still a struggle, and that actually helped us a lot while we were in Africa, and in some ways even saved our lives, because we were able to think through what was happening, and stay focused and grounded in different ways. So I want to give a shout out to JC and also Dr. Barach because this question and his answers really helped us a lot, even while we were enduring some really hard things in Africa. So thank you for that.
They said, “This also brought up more questions, but we don’t want to inundate you with them and that would be unfair and we were afraid it would come across as grilling and that’s not our intention. We were just excited to have some questions answered. For now, thank you for everything you’re doing and we wish you a safe trip to Africa.”
Woo! Thank you for that, because it was hard getting home. [Laughs] We were prepared for Africa, but no one told us to prepare to try to get home. [Laughs]
Thank you so much, JC. I’m glad that that was helpful and feel free to ask whatever questions you want. The questions are awesome. Questions are the only way we learn. We can’t make progress and can’t progress through life and we cannot gain knowledge or experience if we don’t ask questions. Questions are like the most important thing. So never feel bad about asking questions. It’s super important.
And speaking of questions, our friend Kelly has one. Kelly says that they are 35 years old. I don’t know if that is an Alter specific or the body age. But they say, “I didn’t tell my aunt about my DID until six months ago. At that time, I found out that my aunt, who is my mom’s sister, has also been diagnosed with DID. They raised my mom and her siblings the exact same neglectful, narcissistic way that they raised me. My mom has no memory of her childhood, but my aunt has been slowly getting it back.”
Okay, can I just say something about that? That’s a big red flag when there’s absolutely no memory about the childhood, right? [Laughs] We have a similar situation with our brother. Our brother has no memories before the end of highschool when he got married at like age 17. So there’s like three red flags in that sentence. [Laughs] So, yeah. So, it may just be a matter of time until they’re also diagnosed, or maybe express some way differently for them. But that’s definitely an issue when there’s no memory at all. Right? We know that.
They say -- Kelly says, “I have been told in the past by many mental health and medical doctors that it isn’t possible for my aunt to have DID and me have it too, but we have almost identical traumas. I didn’t grow up with her.”And then she talks about where they lived.
Okay, first of all, that’s just false. DID is caused by trauma, and if in your development there is also trauma and these terrible things happen with the circumstances internally and developmentally, that’s what causes DID. So it doesn’t matter if your aunt also has it or if only you have it. It’s not like a water bottle that only one of you can have at a time. It’s not an external object that only one of you can have, and you have to pick who’s turn it is. Like…no. It’s absolutely unrelated to who has it and whether someone else in your family has it, because it’s caused by trauma.
Now, here’s the thing, trauma is passed down in families if healing doesn’t happen. Right? And so if some of what was hard for you was because of things your parents went through and they also didn’t get help, it makes total sense that your parent’s siblings would also have trauma issues. That just makes perfect sense. So, I don’t know who these people are telling you that it’s not possible, but they’re wrong. And you can tell them that I said they’re wrong. [Laughs]
“Here’s my question. It’s clearly possible that her and I can both have DID, but how do we go about things when professionals say it’s not, and I’m curious about what Dr. E would think about the situation.”
I can leave the email for Dr. E to talk about if you want, but I can just tell you that I don’t know what professionals say that that’s not possible, because that is not causal. You don’t have a genetic DID that your aunt also has. It’s not a causation and it’s not a contagion and it’s not a genetic thing. So maybe that’s what they meant and they just stated it poorly. But it’s entirely possible that if you had trauma and your aunt also had trauma, it’s entirely possible that you would separately develop DID, especially if common things in the family are being passed down and trauma happens and so trauma keeps happening. Right? That’s part of why we want to get better. That’s part of why we stay in therapy, so that we can break that cycle, so that we can be chain-breakers, so that we can stop the abuse from happening by not repeating it ourselves. Yeah? So more power to you, Kelly. You’re on the right track and they are just not right. Bam!
Barbara also emailed us. Part of what she said was, “Thank you, all of you, or at least the Ones that come forward comfortably, for shining a light, but even the Ones that don’t. Much respect for that always. You are definitely braver than I.”
Aww, that’s so sweet. I can say, definitely the podcast is terrifying to do. We were not prepared for haters and we were not prepared for the online drama, but now that we’ve learned that it just is and doesn’t actually have anything to do with us, we just stay out of it. We’re not online that much, and so [laughs] it’s pretty easy to ignore now. We were just sort of shocked and confused when it happened. But we learned that lesson the hard way and have adjusted and have moved on with life.
This email’s from Lisa. A shout out to Lisa. She’s one of our subscribers and one of our supporters and we are so, so grateful. Thank you, Lisa, for your support and for helping us and also saving our life in Africa. [Laughs]
“If you remember, I recently wrote in regarding my appreciation for the hope you provided for assisting my son to navigate his conduct disorder, and again today, you have given me another nugget to hold onto. Thank you for your interview of Ms. G of the Adaptive System. Together you helped me understand his, what others call, acting out behavior is just him requesting help for something still unanswered in memory time, and that I simply had to listen and look for his true request and respond in accordance. It’s so simple. I’m joking, but still it seems so basic that I’m ashamed I didn’t think of this before. Thank you for this tip that I had replay over three times and then even texted myself for safety. Every symptom” -- Oh, and then she quotes the podcast -- “Every symptom was meaningful and had purpose in the beginning, but has now become dysfunctional, because it was never responded to in memory time and it’s not getting responded to in now time. So, thanks for this podcast. I’m a better listener to my children’s needs and I can better speak up for them when I witness others abusing their rights. That sounds terrible when I read it back, but I had to become my kid’s advocate instead of already being it. But better late than never.”
You know what? A million kudos to you, Lisa. A shoutout to Lisa, who’s learning to be an awesome mom and advocate for her child. Do not ever, ever feel bad about when you learn something. The point is that you are learning it and now you are doing it. That’s what matters and that’s what makes a difference and that’s so incredibly powerful. People who are not willing to make changes or not willing to see hard things or face hard truths or adapt at all, they are the ones who are maladaptive. [Laughs] They are the ones who are not going to learn, not going to make progress, not going to make changes that would really make a difference. And so it doesn’t matter about, like you said, “Better late than never”, except that you’re doing it right now and you get all the credit for being an awesome mom. And I’m so sorry that it’s so extra difficult at home and with your child, but that’s so much love for you to work so hard at it and to be trying so hard. So, I hope that you have good support and good boundaries and good help as well, but I love that the podcast helped with parenting, with something not even related to DID. And I think that’s so true, because the things that we are learning are good for everyone’s mental health. And so thank you so much, just for being responsive and willing to learn and listening with us and to us and joining us on this journey of making changes.
Lisa says, “I’m still avoiding therapy for myself, as I am still nervous, but I’ve made the first steps by asking my son’s wonderful therapist if she would take me on also, and she agreed. I haven’t made it further than that and I will ask more about the type of treatment you, Pat Ogden, or those you and Ms. G discussed today, as I feel the type of approach is best for me as my trauma issues happens with attachment that I can’t go back in time to repair, but could possibly push through using the body. Maybe something as simple as an interactive metronome like my son at first, because who wants to talk about feelings?” [Laughs] And that’s why I love Lisa. Who wants to talk about feelings? [Laughs]
If you were talking about healing some of those early attachments and relationships, then you will -- maybe could look into something with relational therapy as well, or good, good legit psychologists who can do some deeper stuff, and not just the quick fix on the thinking. So absolutely, either using the relationships or using the body through sensorimotor work, that’s going to be key. Someone who only does CBT or who only does thinking kind of therapy is not going to be enough for you, Lisa. I can tell, because you’ve already beat that system. You’re ready for some deeper stuff. So I don’t meant dive in faster than you want or are comfortable with, but as you’re looking for someone to help you, whether that’s your son’s therapist or someone else, definitely look into these things that you are learning that will give a more in depth approach and more well rounded healing that will last longer, and be a little bit deeper and more permanent in your own development. That’s amazing that you’re doing this, not just for your son, but also for yourself. I adore you. Thank you!
Here’s just a quick email from Crona. “Hey, we are new to all this and we really appreciate what you do. Thank you so much.” Well, congratulations, Crona, and welcome! I don’t know if you’re new to DID or new to the podcast, but I hope it is helpful as you are learning and that you guys just know you’re not alone, that we are here too, and that other listeners are here, and it’s such a big community of safe people as we learn together. Thanks for listening.
This email is from someone I’ll just call “S.” I don’t want to say her full name, but she says that she is a 46 year old wife and mom with six birth children, mostly all grown. She says, “I started working inside my system over 20 years ago, and now I’m struggling again and in great therapy and grasping that we are unhiding again. How do you find the online support? I’m a professional and in the public eye locally as well as coming out would be dangerous for me. I have felt less alone because of your story on the podcasts. This is so very lonely.”
Oh my goodness, my friend. I hear you. It is awful and it is so, so lonely and so, so difficult. I am glad you have found the podcast and I hope it helps you feel less alone as we sort of go through this journey together. We understand about being public and about it not being safe to come out. I know that there are many in the community who are pushing for a general coming out-ness, but for us, it’s just not feasible or safe. We’re getting outed anyway sometimes, and that’s really frustrating and violating. But at the same time, we’re just us, and all of that is true, we just haven’t leaked by the legal name.
When we first found the online support groups, we searched for the ones that were completely closed and private, so that people could not see us in the group unless they were part of the group. But then what happened was we actually had someone who we saw post in the group that was a person we knew. So they did not see us, but we saw them and so we asked the group admin what to do about that, and that’s when they suggested that we not use our legal name in the group, but use a pseudonym for posting and sharing anonymously in the group. And so that’s how that started with Emma Sunshaw and System Speak. So, you can use a pseudonym if that is helpful for safety in the group, but also, there are other ways of getting support online besides just Facebook. There’s also lots of articles. There are also lots of things to research and read. There are stories to listen to, different things, and we’ll continue to feature them as we find them.
But we just did a lot of research, like the nerdy stuff, and research like the people stuff, like how people deal with it, and how you learn about it, and a lot, most of our research really has been about how to find a good therapist, and trying to find a good therapist. And so I’m so glad we have the therapist we do now, and it is absolutely worth the search.
But if you’re looking for the groups that we talk about sometimes, they’re on Facebook, and you can just search “DID Support Groups” or “Dissociative Identity Disorder Groups” and see what pops up. There’s several different ones. You can find which ones fit your style. Some of them are freely open. You can just post anything that you want to post or share and there are no trigger warnings or anything like that, because they just consider that you need to be able to care for yourself to function in the group. Other groups have really specific rules about who can post what, and what kind of trigger warnings to use, and what that looks like.
And that actually is probably the hardest thing for us about group online, because with so many different groups and so many different Ones of us inside, it’s hard to know which group has which rules. And I know what the group leaders would say, is that they have the rules in a pin post and you can read the rules if you go to their group page, and that’s absolutely true and the way to do it. The problem with that is that -- the problem with that though is that if you’re just trying to post in a group and share something, that’s not the same state of mind, and so often not the same Alter as the one who’s functioning enough to be able to go to the group page and read the group rules to see how to post them. So, we don’t post in groups very often, because sometimes when we do, we do it wrong or use trigger warnings when we’re not supposed to or don’t when we should. And so that’s our biggest challenge with groups, but we’re not the boss of the groups. And so if we’re going to participate, we have to follow their rules. Right? So, it’s good practice, I guess, trying to work together, but mostly we just read and lurk and sometimes respond to comments, because we want to offer support like people have been helpful to us. But it’s also hard to share. We’re just not big sharers. We’re better at avoidance [laughs] than sharing our own stuff.
So, I’m sorry it’s lonely, but I totally hear you and I’m so glad you found the podcast. Welcome!
So thank you guys for writing in. Thank you for your continued support and we are trying to regroup and function again and keep the podcast going. It’s just been a hard couple of weeks. What happened in Africa was pretty traumatic. It was obviously retraumatizing in many ways, and obviously triggering in other ways, and so we’re dealing with that. But like we said in the podcast episode with our husband, the best part of that in trying to look for the good in that is that we were able to see that we got ourselves out of that situation and we were able to see that we don’t make this stuff up. Like really bad things can happen, and so one thing that has significantly changed internally, in the last three weeks, is that there are a lot of walls of denial that have come down. Not that they won’t pop back up in other ways [laughs], and not that they won’t stay down. I know that that’s a part of the process, because that’s what dissociation is, right, like a kind of avoiding and it’s our default mode. And so I get that, but trying to stay present and trying to focus on not avoiding has really shown us the power of what we’re able to do and shown us the power of being able to continue with our therapy in a more direct way, because we are able to -- I was talking and it was going really well, and then some people came out of the building and waved at me, and I don’t know them. But it totally [laughs] spooked me and messed up my flow. [Laughs]
So what’s good about it is that we are facing things and we are dealing with things in a way we never have before and in a new phase of therapy kind of is what it feels like, or at least a new phase of working together as a team, maybe both. But I don’t know what that looks like exactly yet, and also facing things is really hard and not avoiding things is really hard. So, it’s a whole new stuff is happening internally. We’ve also met -- We’ve also because of what happened, we’ve also met some new Ones inside that we were aware of, but haven’t met before, and some of us were not aware at all. But anyway, there’s some introductions happening. It’s just a very specific kind of turmoil that we have been working through in the last few weeks. But we are using our skills. We’re staying present. We’re going to therapy. And we even did the workbooks on this week. And we will keep sharing as we learn on this journey together. And I will try really, really hard not to delete this podcast before it goes up. [Laughs] Thanks for listening and thanks for not giving up on us!
[Break]
Thank you for listening. Your support really helps us feel less alone while we sort through all of this and learn together. Maybe it will help you in some ways too. You can connect with us on Patreon. And join us for free in our new online community by going to our website at www.systemspeak.org. If there's anything we've learned in the last four years of this podcast, it's that connection brings healing. We look forward to connecting with you.