Transcript: Episode
Relationalness (Part 1)
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
*Conversation begins*
[Note: Podcast host is in bold. Guest is in standard font]
Thank you for having me again. This time. Let's not make it six recording. Yeah? [Laughter]
Oh my goodness. That was so terrible. I'm so sorry. You were so kind about it though. I'll never forget that.
It was so fun. I mean, that's kind of when Zoom was first really starting or whatever we were doing. So I don't think either one of us really knew what was happening. It was okay.
Well, and that would never happen before. And then it happened that day, like, four times. I lost yours and I lost the Bethany Brand interview. Which she will not redo. Oh, that’s right. Yeah, and she won't redo it. So, sucks to be me. [Laughter] Well, I’ll redo any one with you. I'm okay with it. Oh, you're so kind. [Laughter] Oh…
Okay. So, I have so many things to say. So many things I don't want to say. [Laughter] But, okay. Whooo. We're gonna do this, because we need to wrap this up.
It says my internet connection is unstable. Okay. Can I tell you how we can just add that to the list? Because… [Laughter] Yeah. I mean, why not? Why not? There is nothing I can do about. [Sigh] Okay. We’re just gonna go with the flow. Who knew that we would miss fiber optic internet of all the things when we left Kansas City? [Laughter] Right. Right. Oh, my goodness. So you all use, like, the satellite? We are on the satellite and it's shady at best. And, like, if there is a cloud that goes over [Laughter] it just stops. Like it's really sad. And it's very limited how much you can use. And so we have the six kids who have therapy, so that's six hours. We have therapy; that's seven hours. And that, and then if we have any meetings from ISSTD or if we have like the meetups for the community and stuff, like, our family can't use internet for anything else. And I have to work on the internet. So I have to use the hotspot on my phone for work because we don't have enough internet leftover after eight people having therapy to be able to still connect to the internet. Like, it's bizarre. And they won't let us, we’re on the like the highest paid plan. Oh my goodness. But that's all they have out here. There's no other choices. Yeah. We’re going to go back. Not at all. Yeah. Wow.
So, that's very kind of you to warm me up so I'm not terrified. [Laughter]
Oh, I'm here to do my best. I, you know how I am. So, it's whatever. I had a good birthday. And everything is everything, except you know, as you can see, I need to clean up. But yeah, it's whatever. No, it’s good. It’s good. I'm glad you had a good birthday. I am excited that we can finally close out our birthday trauma by celebrating your birthday. [Laughter] From one birthday to the next, and now it’s done. Way to take one for the team, Kim. I do what I can. What can I do to help you, my friend? Oh, please, would you have your birthday already? Thank you.
Yeah. It's been had. It's been celebrated. And now we're, we're waiting again. We'll see what happens next year. And it was it was nice this year. We didn't really get to do anything last year, of course, because of the pandemic. So it was nice to, you know, get out and have a little bit of fun. So it's good.
Oh. So you asked a question on the community because you have some ovaries, and you just posted it right out there for everybody to see. And I was like, “Oh man!” [Laughter]
I don’t why it jumps in my brain. I just was like, “You know what? I'm confused. I'm just gonna type it.” And I didn't think until I was like, “Wait a minute. That might not have been appropriate.”
No. Here was the thing. First of all, I-. I changed my name on zoom. There we go. So, first of all, I actually didn't mind at all. For several reasons. One, I know your heart. And you are like one of my safe people. And actually, you were one of the first people that we met through the podcast way back in the beginning. Yeah. And so because of that, like I've known you even longer than Peter, and really the only person I've known almost the whole time we've been diagnosed besides, like, the previous Kellys, or like previous therapists, or the English teacher, really. So welcome to my life, Kim. [Laughter]
Well! It seems like I'm always like right in, right in the middle. Because it's kind of like that with my Loves too. I was, I walked in and I'm like, “Oh, okay. I guess I'm here now.” And there's only, there's only a few of us here. So you know, that's, that's how it seems like I walk into the world. So. I'm glad to be here.
Well, I appreciate it. Your, your heart has done us good, and you have been very gracious and supportive. And, like, we could talk about your stuff instead of my stuff. But you are a trooper to be so dedicated to someone with DID even when it's not easy. And we can talk about some of those layers in my story, not your story, later. Right. But I know, I know, it's hard, because it's hard for me on the inside. I can't imagine what it's like trying to live with that, or to date someone, or to be a partner of someone, or to even be a friend with someone, when all of that's going on. Like, that push and pull in that: Are they safe? Are they not safe? How much is my responsibility? How much is theirs? Do they even know how? Do they want to do this at all? Like, those are all very real questions. And it's exhausting.
It is. It's very exhausting. It's hard. It was actually easier in the beginning when I didn't know. Because I just thought that they were just, you know, they just had different ways of interacting with me. I didn't know anything until I kind of started putting the pieces together in my own brain. And I was like, “Wait a minute. This isn't connected, this is the connecting.” But then after I found out and I started kind of asking questions, and then there was some kind of some kind of, I guess, trigger or something. That's when things got hard. It wasn't hard until whatever happened happened. I still don't know what that is. They still don't know, or they're saying that they still don't know exactly what it is either. But whatever that was, that's what kind of started making things hard. Because now I kind of, I am in that place sometimes where I'm thinking, “Do I know you? What happened? Are we okay? Are we not okay? Do you really want to be here? Do you not really want to be here? Like, one minute you’re saying this, next minute-.” So that teeter totter is very difficult.
But what has helped me a lot is just my own learning. And your podcast is what kind of jump started it, because I didn't know anything. I, since I didn't know anything, I was not asking them the right questions. I was asking things like, um, you know, “How do you, how are you guys making it out of your brain?,” and you know, “How do you figure out who’s going to do what?” I'm asking those like very topical questions, but I didn't know the right questions to ask like, “How did this happens? What causes it? What kind of struggles are you having? What happens in your body?” I didn't know anything. But your podcast helped, and then I started reading, I started researching. That's what kind of got me into a place where it's still very hard.
But I have figured out that there's like a Nerd Town Kim, and then there's the Partner Kim. And so a lot of times the Nerd Town Kim understands what's happening. And I can kind of breathe a little bit and not take things so seriously and personally. But then the Partner Kim sometimes is very hurt and very confused. And that's when it gets to be really difficult is when the heart part, the you know, the Heart Kim, the Relationship Kim, is struggling. That's when it becomes a real issue.
So, having my own therapist helps with that. And I'm learning to kind of get back to the things that I used to do that I like, like karaoke and painting and music. So things like that really do help a lot in times like now. Especially now when they are so seriously having such a really, really difficult time. So that does help. It really does.
I think that when we have relational trauma and there are attachment issues, that's so hard to start a relationship in, it's so hard to maintain a relationship in. But then when there's a rupture, even if it's some simple innocent thing, like I don't mean anyone did anything terrible, when there's a rupture, we literally don't have the skills to repair it. And it's terrifying. And then on top of that, like we are mortified that like the one person or whoever that finally cared about us, that now we've caused harm. And I think it increases avoidance and makes it even harder to work it out or repair. Because then there’s shame that's like legit. I can't blame that on my parents. I can't blame that on somebody else. That's on me. I messed this up.
Oh, I've never, I never thought about it that way. See, this is what helps when you can talk to someone who is in it, because they kind of give you a little bit of a better perspective. I didn't think of it as them feeling that shame or what have you because they missed my birthday. They made plans to do something with me. And then they just never showed. So, Wednesday was my birthday. They just didn't show up. They didn't call. They didn't text. They didn't do anything. So I'm not, now that I'm listening to you I'm thinking maybe it's the shame part that, like I still haven't heard from them, maybe they feel that, “Oh my god. I missed the birthday. I missed this. And so now I'm feeling this shame parts so I don't even want to try to reach out because I don't want to face that.”
So that helped Nerd Town Kim a little bit. [Laughter] But Relational Kim, I, yeah, it, it kind of stings. because we haven't seen each other in a really long time so I was kind of looking forward to it. Um, so, you know. That's so hard. We’ll see, right? That’s so hard. And I think that-. It is very hard.
I'm sorry. I'm sorry that happened. I think that it's such an example of even people, like our husband doesn't have DID, but he talks about having parts. You know, like how you've got Nerd Time Kim and this Relational Kim, and you're having to collaborate to help both of them, and having to communicate to help both of them. Yes. Wow.
That's spot on. That spot on. Very much so. It’s, you know, one of the things that is something that I appreciate about the relationship is it does caused me—the person without DID—it causes me to learn more about myself, but it also causes me to kind of adjust. And I don't want to make it seem like, you know, I'm supposed to, you know, bend over backwards and all that kind of stuff. But what I'm saying is that the way that I'm able to now know that there's Nerd Town Kim and Relational Kim, and we have to help each other, is very helpful because it shows me that I can adapt to some things, but I have to be careful about how I do it, and make sure that there are still boundaries so that I can take care of Kim as a whole, the whole Kim. So that's kind of where I am now in that okay, I get that there's like two Kims, but this one Kim still has to make sure that I'm okay. And so that's what I'm working on now is making sure that I'm okay, even though it's really hard to know that they're struggling so very much there. I mean, I can only do so much, and I can't continue to, you know, beat myself up for the things I cannot do. So that's where I am now.
We still do have a good therapist, or the new therapists that I got from ISSTD. Now, in all fairness, they did quit therapy. My Loves quit therapy. They did not tell me that they quit. Oh, the therapist contacts me. She's like, “Hey, Kim.” So I said, “Okay.” So I reached out. I'm like, “Hey, what are you doing? This is a boundary. I told you.” And so they have come back. And we are actually going to have a session all of us together, my Loves, the therapist, and myself, just so that we can talk about some things like payment, help with them getting, you know, ways to help with payments, what my commitment level is, and where realistically they can possibly be if they continue on the journey throughout the rest of 2021. So I think that we have a really good T, or Kelly. [Laughter] And we're gonna, we're going to see. But I am glad that I did stick up for myself to say, “Hey, this was a boundary that I set, and, you know, if we can't do that, then I'm gonna have to back off.” Because I know what it's like to be with them without therapy and it doesn't work. For me, it's too hard, just to it's too difficult.
I think that that's completely fair. And it's very brave of you to have boundaries. And I, they're not here to defend themselves so I don't want to pick on them. And I know what that struggle is like, I get it. But also one of the really really important things that's a very early lesson that sometimes is a hard lesson is that we are responsible for what we do. And it doesn't matter what part is doing what in that context. And it's not okay to harm others, and it's not okay to hurt others. And the impact of us not cooperating or communicating or collaborating or comforting each other, like whatever the internal needs are, the impact of that on those around us can be detrimental or it can be really good when we're doing it well. And so it's a really early lesson. Yeah. It's a harsh lesson. But it's absolutely important. There is no diagnosis that is an excuse for bad behavior.
And I’m still learning that. So I'm glad that you did bring that up. It's still hard for me to understand that if one part is doing something everyone is, like, everyone's totally responsible as a whole to make sure something gets done. I still struggle with that. Because you know, I know them so I know who's probably doing x, who probably said y, who probably-. You know what I mean? So I still struggle in that aspect. But I am trying to learn that, as you said, it's no excuse. Like everyone they still have to together figure something out. So that's where I am in my own personal walk with this, is I can't separate because this person did it, and just put everything on this person and leave everyone else off the hook. Because I'm guilty of doing that. I'm like, “Well, it wasn't that person, it was that one.” And that's not fair. So, I'm working on it.
It's hard. It's hard. But there's a difference between not knowing because you're newly diagnosed or not yet diagnosed, and having access to a therapist and a supportive person who's saying, “Hey, this is what's going on and we need to deal with it as a team, your team internally and us as part of a team together, that it's impacting all of us, including me. Because you, Nerd Town Kim and Relational Kim, are just as important parts as all of their parts in their system.” Like you matter too. Kim matters. [Laughter] Respect. For anyone who doesn't see as we're holding up our fists. Thank you. You're right. You're right. Thank you.
And, in case this couldn’t get more exciting, my chicken’s laying an egg outside the window right now. So they're announcing that, in case you can hear that in the background. [Exhale] These chickens. My chickens are talking back. I'm trying to record and the chickens are talking back to me outside the window. [Laughter] I worked so hard to get the children quiet. [Laughter]
The chickens are always trying to be in the business. There's dirt in the business all the time.
Yeah, we may have to phase out the podcast a little bit. It's not working. [Laughter]
Oh, my goodness, I can't. I can't do anymore. I’ve caught up to myself and we’re done.
Oh, okay. Sorry for the interlude. But thank you for your turn in the hot seat, being vulnerable together helps me be brave, if I can put my brave pants on. Because… Come on. …when you woke up with your ovaries that day, and just threw that question out into the community, you were asking-. Do you remember how you said it? I know you were asking about the therapist, and like you were asking was it her fault or our fault? What, what were you asking? Say it again?
I, I did. I said, “Is it possible that it was no one's fault?” Because it sounded like JohnMark was blaming himself. It sounded like then the other ones that the therapist did something wrong. Or was it miscommunication and no one did anything wrong?
Oh. [Exaggerated sigh]
I know. These ovaries!
So, okay. As painful as it is, and all joking aside. Because you were a safe person, I really thought if you had that question, other people might have that question. And here's why it's important for me to answer it. In part because I need to do my work. So I can't call out your Loves if I also do my work. [Laughter] Okay. So there's that.
But also, because, um, the therapist—that Kelly—and our friends that are involved, like none of them consented to be on the podcast, and they just got drug out all year long by default. So when we, we-. We had someone on the podcast last summer, or this summer, I don't know. It’s all is blurred together. And one of the questions they asked was if we had any regrets about the podcast. And at the time, I was like, “Not really. I've just done my best, you know?” But now, on this side of things, this is almost a regret. Like, not really. Because if I'm being really honest, and if I'm being really brave about facing down my shame, I don't think we could have done it any differently. I really think that we did our best. But also, I wish we had never brought them into it. Because I didn't mean for there to be a year of podcast episodes about that Kelly or our friends. I really didn't. I had no idea. No idea.
And it took us a year and a half to figure out that that birthday party was connected to a piece from our childhood. Had no idea. We just didn't do birthdays. Right. And so our friend, our friend was like, “Well, you've missed all these birthdays.” And she is very big into celebrating because she has a generous heart and she's a beautiful spirit. And that's wonderful. And I was like, “Well, I don't really do birthdays.” And so she said, “Well, we won't do your birthday. I will just come for the weekend. And we'll hang out and it will be easy. We'll play with the children.” And we had worked hard enough on friendship. This is the one that also had a son that was sick. So that's how we connected originally, right? was because of our children. But our friendship grew beyond that.
And now I'm still talking about her. Although, I mean, she said that that was okay at the time. But I feel bad it turned out to be so hard. But we kept talking about it because that's the thing with people with relational trauma. It is that hard.
So she said that she would come for the weekend and we would just make it kind of easy and neutral and not really about birthdays. Like, we did have a conversation to the best we could. We are better now at boundaries. Like, we have sent her a message and said, “Please stop texting us birthday messages. We love you. We love that part of you. But I just can't.” [Laughter] Right. So you’re like, we're learning more about boundaries too, right? So that's our self-care, not something she did wrong. She didn't do anything wrong at all. But that was our plan.
Very close to the last minute she said she could not come for the whole weekend, because one of her friends wanted to come. This was someone we barely knew, but was in that crowd of like safe people we were trying to get to know, that we were being exposed to. Right. So at least we had that connection and there were some special things there. So okay. So since this friend wanted to come as well, she could only stay for the day. And so they changed plans, drove all the way up, which took four hours, right, because they were driving to Kansas City? And then, like, took us out for lunch, helped us pick up the kids, and then they left again.
So all of that was very kind. And I have to-. I want to make sure, if I can stay present enough to hold both things at the same time, I want to make sure that I acknowledge all of those pieces. Because when I'm just talking about the pieces that are hard, that's important for me to do. And to get better, I have to learn how to do that. Because dissociating is about avoiding that, right? Right. So I have to learn how to hold on to what was hard and why it's hard and explore that, which is why we talked about it for a year and a half. Why was this so hard?
But we got to the answer. But it took us a year and a half, because that's how hard it was to find the answer. But while we're focused on that, it was hard because of our past issues, not because these girls did anything wrong. And it's important to come full circle and say that and acknowledge that because the hard was not them-. I mean, pragmatically, a change in plans was hard. Right. And having to celebrate my birthday was hard. And like, we went for Mexican food, which is a JohnMark thing, and I'm allergic. So that was hard because we had to navigate that and JohnMark was not going to be at a birthday party. And they put a hat on our head and singing happy birthday. Like, it could not have gotten more birthday-ish. Which for them was just fun and silly. But for us was way way beyond where we were ready for. Right. Yeah.
And the other thing is that it takes us a really long time just to warm up and be able to interact. And so by the time we were even ready to start talking to them, like to be in the same room even, almost comfortable, it was time for them to go. Okay. And then when they left, the pandemic happened like weeks after that. And so like I basically, for the first time in my life, other than the Julie thing, which is a whole different different thing that we're not talking about. I remember Julie. Yeah. That's a whole different thing that we're not talking about.
But other than that, for the first time in our life, we let someone come into our home and then basically never heard from them again. And it was really, really dysregulated. It was really, really triggering. It was really, really, it was terrifying. But again, I want to be very clear, because we've not been clear about this point, which is why you have the question. It was not because the girls did anything wrong. The trigger, and what made it so hard, was because of the past. So what we learned in that year and a half was about what happened at the birthday party when we were four, which is alluded to a little bit in the book. We learned about that, like child exploitation, the child pornography, and people coming to our home as part of that process. Right. And without without talking about it more in depth, that was the trigger, was people coming to our home. And so people coming to our home and then leaving like that was actually really, really unsettling when we were in a place of being so so vulnerable. And then without hearing from them after that. What happened internally, I think, was that it was really hard to reassure some parts that those people were still safe, because we didn't hear from them anymore. Okay.
If we had been able to maintain contact, or if we had been able to continue to grow those relationships, and… Right …that, that I think would have been a very healing thing. But because the pandemic happened, it was just left open. Like someone came in popped the blister and then just left it to bleed. [Laughter] Yeah. Yeah. And so that was very painful.
But because we didn't have all those pieces connected, like talking about parts again, right? One part had this piece, and one part had this piece, one part of this piece. Right. We couldn't connect it at all to make sense. So all the messages that we were getting, or I was getting, or or that we were getting on the surface was, “These people we thought were safe were not safe. Because now where are they? We’re in actual danger—pandemic--and we're not hearing from all, so where did they go?” Or “Why did people come to our house and then leave? And they're the ones who came to our house and left, so now we know that they are dangerous.” Even though they weren't really. Got it. They weren't really.
They are wonderful, kind, kind people. And, and really, when you have all the pieces and can look at it like from the outside, from a healthy context, they were people kind enough and generous enough to drive that far just to take us to lunch, and then drive all the way home. Like, they took a whole day just to take us to lunch. That's a lot of effort. That's a lot of generosity, and kindness, and thoughtfulness to remember us on a day that they at some degree understood, or at some level understood, was hard for us. That's really thoughtful. We just didn't have the pieces to connect on the outside.
Now. Okay, I got that. In contrast, one of those girls continued to message us. And then even after we moved, showed up with like food boxes, showed up with clothes for the children, remembered to come, remember that we wanted to go for a walk for our birthday this year to try to neutralize things and showed up, even though we had to reschedule it because of the pandemic, came like months later. “Hey, we're here for your birthday walk.” And we went on a little walk. And like, there were different ways that she showed up, literally showed up, so that we could calm those parts to say, “This person is still a safe person.”
And it's not that we thought the other people were bad, or that the new one that we were just barely meeting. it's not that we thought she was bad. It's that we had no way to hold on to it. Like, attachment, even when it's positive, like slips through our fingers like sand. It's so hard to hold onto. It doesn't have a shape.
I can text, I can, I remember Peter because Peter has continued, like we have a full conversation, besides just messaging, we have a full conversation with him, like a video visit, like every other week. Right. Okay. For this whole last year. So, so I can hold onto Peter because I can see that image, and because I have his messages, and I have these ways to say, “I have had this friend for this many years now.” Which is a big deal for us. I can hold on to you, Kim, because you continue to send messages and because you've done things like that episode that we had to record 1800 times. Right.
And so, through those kinds of experiences we've been able to connect different parts and different levels. I'm not saying that every part of me needs to be best friends with everyone in the outside world. That's not practical. It's not safe. Right. It's not always appropriate. And, but there are ways to safely connect enough that that message can sink all the way through. So I'm trying to explain. I don't know, like, it's almost like you have to tip the dominoes. But if there's one missing, it doesn't get all the way back to the beginning. Like you have to-. Yeah. I need-. Like, it's not that “Oh, I think this person is a terrible person.” It's that I need someone to help me hold on to her being a good person because my only connection was that she changed our plans so that we didn't get to see our friend and then didn't talk to me again. So that's a weird thing to happen on my end of things, even though she intended well, and and even though she had good intentions, and nothing bad actually happened. It's just a lot of tangles, right?
And even all of this, as hard as it is, and as difficult it is, it's still easier than talking about the Kelly. Because I'm still talking about friend instead of the Kelly, right? Got it. So avoidance, ah! Yes. I’m following. I’m following. I get it. Well, thank you.
So the point, though, is that the same thing with the Kelly, when we're talking about this is what was hard, and this is what was hard, and this is what this part is figuring out, and this part is figuring out, the pieces we're not put together yet. But we did not at all mean to discount or dismiss what good there was. Okay.
And so I appreciated your question because I want-. They've been so-. I mean, I have no idea if they listened to the podcast or not. That's an example of a change. We used to talk about it. Yeah. They used to say, “I'm listening to this episode,” and we would talk about it, and then-. Not like all the time. I don't mean that's what we, that-. I don't mean that's the only thing we talked about. But we still-. It was a way to stay connected and a way to help me reflect externally what was happening internally. But when they stopped doing that, and I don't know why-. Maybe because I talked about the birthday party and they were done with that. Like, I don't know. I don't know. And because of the pandemic, it's not like I've seen them to be able to talk to them about these things. Right. And so, so when they stopped talking about that, I stopped having a way to connect about that. And it was just like a slippery slope of the things, the things that were structured in that helped me to find safe ways for connection were all taken away. And so then I didn't know, I couldn't hold on to it by myself, I didn't know how to fix it.
And then the therapist who was a very good therapist-. That Kelly was a good therapist. I don't at all mean to imply that she wasn't. All that she taught us that was good stands true. And we can hold on to that because we made that list. Like, Emma's Top 10 I think it's called, that Mother's Day episode? We listened to that over and over again because those are truths that she gave us that are still true even though we don't get to see her. Right. So, as-.
Ooo, there we go. Like, I got there. Then it got hard and I was like, “And, we're done.” [Laughter] Yeah. Oo, so close. I saw it. I was like, “Okay.” So close! Suck that right back in. [Laughter] Oo!
*Conversation pauses*
This conversation will be continued in the next episode.
[Break]
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