Transcript: Episode
Relationalness (Part 2)
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
*Conversation continues*
[Note: Podcast host is in bold. Guest is in standard font]
Okay. So first of all, that's mine. And one of the reasons I wanted to address it was because if you had that thought, I was concerned other people had that thought. And I wanted to be clear and make sure it came full circle that these are good and wonderful people. We would not have gotten involved with them—and I think the husband said this, I think we put it in the book—we would not have gotten involved with them if they were not good and safe people. Yep. And they are some of the most precious souls on the planet that I've ever met.
The problem was that by default, which is a word I'll explain in a minute, by default, our worlds clashed. So by default, I mean, I don't have all of the answers because it's still in pieces and we're still putting it together. Yeah. But ultimately, what happened was that we found out, or realized, or somehow missed the pieces in the middle. I don't know. We put together the pieces that our Kelly was friends with our friends. And I want to be very very clear that our Kelly did not overstep or disclose or anything the same way that had been done with us in the past. Our experiences of that were a long long time ago with different Kellys. This Kelly did not do that. This Kelly reassured us repeatedly that she could hold the boundaries and that it’s just part of working in a rural community. Okay. And so she was very careful about that.
Our issue was, internally, right or wrong, just straight up experience. Our experience was that we had for the first time seen the beauty of what deep friendship can be, and we did not want to be a reason that they had secrets from each other, even if it was just her professional boundary. Oh. So she could keep the, she could keep the boundaries and reassured us of that over and over again. But we did not want to be the cause of a boundary between them. I got it.
So for her, she could manage it and she handled it very professionally. I felt she handled things very professionally and as appropriately as you could in the situation. So I do not at all mean to complain about her. That was not was bad. The people were not bad. The situation itself was toxic because we got stuck in a shame loop. But it was the shame that was toxic, not the people.
So, for us, we felt bad because there was no way out. If we became-. Like she was helping us in therapy to be friends with them before we realized that they were all the same friends. Got it. And if we did what we were learning in therapy and became closer friends with them, we were going to lose our therapist. But if we didn't become friends with them, so that we could keep our therapist, then we would lose our friends and fail therapy. Hmm.
So we got stuck in a loop, even though everyone was trying to support us. She said she could manage the boundaries. Our friends said that they could manage the boundaries. We didn't want there to be any wall. So we are the ones ourselves, we said at the birthday party explicitly, “She was our therapist. We are getting a different therapist. She's not our therapist anymore. She was treating us for DID.” And we just put those four pieces out on the table so that they were public, so that there would not be secrets. And we did it immediately because we didn't want there to be any walls up, or people having to tiptoe around us. Because that is also a trigger. Yeah. Right? It just doesn't feel good.
And so, what we thought, just trying to do the best that we could, is that if we just we needed to be closer to our family anyway. We were gone too much. This was before the pandemic. We are now clearly with our family enough. I just want to point that out. In month 21 of quarantine. [Laughter] Lots of family time now. I am paying that karmic price right there. Right. But at the time, we were working out of the country so much, and then we would be gone all day Monday. Like, it took us a whole 12 hours to get to therapy, to do therapy, to recover from therapy, to get home from therapy. Like we wouldn't get home until 10 or 11 at night sometimes. And so we didn't see the children at all, and then have to take off to go work somewhere else in another country.
And so it was-. It felt like God or the universe or something was working things out, to help us take a brave step forward of even though she was an excellent Kelly, to get a new therapist-. This is me not crying. To leave-. I know. Okay. To leave that Kelly, and to get a new therapist closer to our family so that we would not be gone as much. And then in that process, also protect our new friends and our Kelly both from having to have these walls that we caused. And so, what we did was the smartest thing any person with an attachment disorder would do, is that we told our therapist in a letter from Iraq or Syria or somewhere that we weren't coming back. [Laughter]
I know! I know! [Laughter] It's worse than breaking up on text. It was so bad. [Laughter] It was so bad. But it was literally the best we could do. Because we had tried to tell her in person that we weren't coming back. We had tried. And she's like, “No, I'm always going to be here. I'm always going to be here.” Like, that's how good she was to just hold that presence whether I wanted her to or not. And so we were not good enough yet at boundaries or at communicating directly what we needed, because it was so hard for us to find out what we needed. We did not have capacity to communicate it. So that was literally the best we could do.
So we sent her a letter while we were in Syria in the Middle East or somewhere, and then said that we weren't coming back, and then we flew-. Then we had to go to California for the fires. We were deployed there. And then we came home for just like a week to see the children before we flew back to California for the fires, and then ISSTD. And then the pandemic happens. And the birthday party happened in that week while we were home.
And so there was just no clearing up. We never got to go back to that therapist. She also, I mean, she says this was not to just get back at us. [Laughter] But also, while we were in the Middle East, she closed her office. Like, their office had to move because of problems with the building. And that office was the same place we had gone to therapy when we were 17. I remember. So, of course you do. Miss attunement, I listen to every episode. [Laughter] And so-.
We need drinks and salsa. This is too intense for Zoom. We really do. We really do.
So, it was like we both fired each other, except not really at all. Right. Right. But that's what happened, essentially, is what happened. Her office literally does not exist anymore. Wow. And it happened to her too. Like, she opened a new office but because of the pandemic didn't ever get to work in it until now. You know, so like, there was not even a place we could go to work it out. But also we could not go back. We could not go back.
So, basically, that's all there is of the scoop. And the reason I want to explain all of that is because I want to be clear that these are good good people that freaked us out. [Laughter] But we freaked out because of our past, not because they did anything wrong. These are, they are precious souls. They are precious souls. I don't know if they'll ever speak to me again. But they are precious souls.
And so basically, we like, I don't know, in some kind of reenactment-. We're still untangling this piece. But we're learning this summer. We have a therapist now. But basically, in some kind of reenactment, which I’m sure has to do with childhood, but I don't even want to know about it, which is why I don't know about it. But in some kind of reenactment, like, sacrificed ourselves from both our friends and our therapist to protect them so that they could still be friends together.
And I think that Kris or Doctor E., I think, thought like because licensure has rules about how long you're out of treatments before you can interact-. Which is not how the ethics go, right? Like, it's not about how long can we wait until we break the rules. But that's not how it works. Right. But I think if we waited that period of time that it would at least normalize, because we were in this rural community and what if our paths crossed? Or what about these sharing friends or things? And so I think they thought if we just laid low for like that two years or whatever, that it would work out in the end and be okay.
Except that what happened was, that was so unexpected, is that it turned out we actually were attached to that Kelly. And so leaving her devastated us. That was a bad move. [Laughter] That was wrong, what we did. It like destroyed everything. It was so bad. The podcast obviously got so dark. We literally spent the year-. Oh my God. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. [Laughter] It was so bad. And we would literally fighting for our lives all because of this.
And then the other piece that we didn't realize that would happen is that like we thought we could just let go of our Kelly. Even though that was most hard. She was I guess the most worth protecting somehow. So like, we thought we were keeping her safe and protecting her from ourselves. Yeah. But when we struggled with losing her, what we did not understand going into it is that our friends would not support us in that.
So it's, again, this goes back to what the experience is internally versus what's happening externally. Because those people would say to us, “You can tell us anything. We are here for you. I'm sorry, it's hard. We will listen to you.” Or whatever. But because they are also so protective of that Kelly—who is their friend, she's not they’re Kellys—because they were so protective of her, they would only listen but not be able to respond. Right. Like at all. They would not say her name. They would not say, if I said-. And I don't mean we needed to gossip about her. I don't mean that. But if I'm even-. If I just said, “I'm really sad today because it's Monday, and on Mondays we always went to see Kelly,” they would reply with something unrelated, but supportive. Yeah. Like, “I'm sorry it's a hard day,” or whatever. But they would never like even use her name. So it's almost like our internal, like how some parts internally experienced that is that was misattunement. Because what we needed to process, we could not process with them. Right. Even though they weren't at all harming us, and they were absolutely trying to be supportive.
The other thing that happened is that when, before all of this happened, when she was still our Kelly and before all the worlds overlapped in all the ways. Which we feel guilt and shame about, which is a different part of the story. But before all of that, we could, we would literally go to therapy, then go to our friend's office at work, talk to her about what we were learning in therapy, our progress, kind of process it, do a podcast on the way home, like get it out, contain it and then go be a good parent or go function at work, right? Right. But after this happened, they stopped talking. It's like she disappeared from their mouths and their minds. It’s like she never existed. And so I understand that they were trying to be careful of boundaries to protect her. Which is absolutely okay. But it completely shut down the way we had learned to open up. Yeah.
And so we lost our Kelly, and really, lost our friends. The one still texts me every day like, “good morning.” And one we are, we've learned, because the one that showed up and showed up and showed up, so we've built our own relationship. And, and it's trying. But it leaves me in that same place of what we were talking about in the beginning and why attachment is so hard for people with trauma. And this was just one example with all good people, all safe people. And it was still that hard. And that big. Yeah.
[Exhale] [Brief pause] [Laughter]
That's a, that's a lot. First, I didn't know that my ovaries were going to open up this can of worms. But leave it to me, right?
[Laughter] Thank you for asking the question. Because it made me, I didn't even realize that train of thought until you said it. And then I was like, “Oh cuss.” [Laughter] Because I didn't at all mean to make them sound bad. And I didn't mean to talk about them for a whole year. That stupid birthday party was so sweet and it was very kind of them. That was not the problem. The problem was that my foster parents died when I was four. That's the problem. Yeah. I got it.
And so it was, so, but it's the perfect example, unfortunately, for all of us. It’s the perfect example of how trauma gets in the way. Because it literally took me a year and a half to understand what was in the way, and that whole time I thought I was the problem. Like because of shame, right? So it comes back. And they were good and safe people. And if these were the only good and safe people I could find, and clearly destroyed that and had no chance at repairing that, and no, there's no-. Like everything we, all that progress we had made was gone. We were left here alone with all that awfulness. Yeah. And so that that was on me. And if the goodest, kindest, bestest, safest people on the planet, if I'm too much for them, if they can't help me, if I'm going to destroy even that, then clearly it's me that's the problem, and there's no hope left. Uh huh. And that's when things got really dark, and really hard.
But, and then our therapist died of covid. [Laughter] But we have another therapist now. And we have spent six months talking about this in therapy and gone over it and over and over it. And she has been so patient with that. And it's humiliating. It's humiliating that I made such a mess of things. It's humiliating that my expression of my own struggle would at all sound like they had done anything wrong. I think, I think if I were being honest about what they did that was hard for me, it would be more things like [pause]. It felt like the people-. The only betrayal that I felt from them, rather than from myself, the only betrayal I felt from them was that I felt like they had expectations that were not communicated to me, and they had expectations of me that were not possible.
And I think that's why that conference that taught me about the brain, and the neurological system, and shame and everything. I think that's why that saved my life. Because I realized it was a capacity issue. Because until then, I thought I was failing. Because of the shame. I thought, like, what am I, like, it just felt like, why is this drama? It shouldn't be drama. That's not who I am. This is, like, hurting them is not where my heart is. Like, I don't understand where I am. But I was also far enough along in therapy, to be able to say, “Hey, this hurts me. Stop hurting me.” Yeah. But I couldn't figure out what it was that was hurting.
So it just took a long time. It took so long to untangle. I think that if we had ever, the only thing I would have changed, but I couldn't because of the pandemic. The only thing I would have changed was, I would have rather very early in the beginning we all just came back together and just had a conversation about it and just talked about it. Hmm, yeah. But the pandemic happened. So we couldn't do that. Right.
Well, and see. I think that that's kind of where my question about, “Was it possible that this was a miscommunication?” I didn't think that you were like dogging them, or talking trash about them, or anything like that. It just seemed like after listening to the podcast for that year of everything going down, and then I remember a podcast where you talked about, you know, that you all had moved to be closer to the family. So it was good and right that you had to leave that Kelly. And then JohnMark was on and he was like, “I gotta fix it because it's all my fault.” And then the other therapy episodes recently and I'm thinking, “Huh. It sounds like there's some miscommunication here.”
So I don't want you to think that I thought you were, like I said, trashing them. Because I did it. It just felt to me like there was, like you were saying, I think there were things that perhaps weren't communicated or weren't communicated clearly between all parties involved. And at that time, I did not know that your Kelly and your friends were friends. So I just thought it was miscommunication between you and Kelly. And now I'm seeing that it's even bigger because there are more people involved. So I [indistinct] that's kind of where I was getting it from, is that Kelly [indistinct] somewhere? I feel like someone just didn't, someone didn't get the memo somewhere. And that's why I was, why I kind of asked the question. And then when you clarified it, and I went ahead and deleted it, I was like, “That's the memo. And I’m the one who didn’t get it.” [Laughter]
Well, because, I didn't know all of this would be so public. We did not know it was going to unfold like it did. That, I would have done that differently. But, um. Yeah. But the other pieces you're asking about, I think I can answer them because of therapy, which is why I made you wait a week. [Laughter]
Yeah, because we've been planning this, you guys, for a little bit. [Laughter]
Um, the part about it being our fault has to do with littles being involved, so I don't want to talk about it at all. But they basically still think that it's all their fault that we lost everyone. Which is in part hard to confront because I can see, I can—after therapy, I couldn't a year ago—but now after therapy, I can see their train of thought. Like, in therapy I can follow that train of logic and understand why they're thinking that. So that's one hard piece. The other hard layer of that is that I think that is also a reenactment from the birthday party that the fire was their fault.
So, if you've read the book, there is a fire that happens on the birthday, which is why the birthday is so hard, right? But, also. Yeah. [Pause] Assuming-. This is-. Okay. I'm just gonna say this. I'm just gonna say this. Because this is my life. Again, not anyone's fault and purely coincidental, but when we got close to starting to talk about the fire with our Kelly, her mother's house burned down in an actual fire that was all over the news. So, she, we did not-. I know we did not cause her mother's house to burn down. Our Kelly knows that we did not call her mother's house to burn down. But our littles who were not supposed to talk about the fire, did talk about the fire, and another fire happened.
Right. I remember that episode also. Yeah. That was tough. That was tough.
So that's a lot of layers there, which we need to work on in therapy, and we were talking about in therapy. But I think it was an example of like all the greatest things-. Like, any survivor, anyone with DID especially, but any survivor who's in therapy, who had developmental trauma with threats against them, even if they're not dissociative, but if anyone who's ever been told even like in a work setting or something like with a mean boss or something, anyone who’s ever been told or like gaslit in that way, “If you talk about this, this is what's going to happen to you.” Right? That's so common with survivors and with child abuse of all kinds of forms.
But for us, it's like we started finally actually talking after four years in therapy, five years in therapy, and then like it started actually happening. There was a real fire that happened in Now Time. We really did lose our Kelly. We did not get to stay. Even if she said we would get to keep her forever, we didn't lose her. We lost our friends, even though she said these are the safest people ever. We lost them. It did not work out for us. We said, “We need a book on this. We can't do friendship. It’s too hard. It's too scary.” And she's like, “Step toward, step towards, turn towards, whatever, step into it, like, whatever,” and the pandemic happen and we were thrown into our house on lockdown for 21 months. Like it could not be any worse, even though he was all coincidental. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
So part of what happened then was that we were so disoriented because how we used to say that Now Time was safe. Now Time was not safe anymore. And it took us forever to untangle that.
But we sorted that out once we got back in therapy again. But it took us a long time in part, too, besides the pandemic, we thought when we left our Kelly that we had a good therapist. We had an amazing therapist. We didn't know that wasn’t going to work out, and that the other one wouldn't, and the other one. Like, things kept happening to us beyond our control, even before the, even besides the pandemic. And so, we would never have just left our Kelly cold turkey like that. But ultimately, that's what happened. And so we were left stranded with all of that happening externally and internally.
[Pause] It was hell.
[Pause] I'm sorry to throw that at you. It's too much.
I can see why-. I mean, that's what happens when you ask the kinds of questions that I ask. [Laughter] These are the answers that you get.
But Kim I appreciate you. Like, what we needed instead of a house burning down fire, was like a campfire with marshmallows and hot dogs and drinks and stuff, and like Girl Talk. [Laughter] That's what we kept thinking. We just need a conversation and there was literally no way to have the conversation. Yeah.
So, then the only other layers that made it even more complicated was when we did the English Teacher episode to talk to her about our past. And she was like, “No, you can't talk to your Kelly anymore ever, period. Because she was a Kelly. You can never talk to your Kelly again, period.” And we're like, “But we need our notebook. And we need this.” And waaa. [Laughter] Like, and so, and we were still texting her until that point sometimes. And had met her once at the park to like get our, like our cochlear implant batteries and some things we had left at her office. Because we spent a lot of time there a long way from home. [Laughter] So like, nothing, nothing inappropriate. Yeah. Just, it's just some, like our map, we have a map of our system, and our batteries for our ears, and some things like that. And so we met her like halfway to pick that up, which was very gracious of her. And we had still texted. And the English teacher was like, “No, you have to stop that.”
And so then we were like, “Oh, maybe that's why our friends are not talking about her anymore. Maybe we really are supposed to stop.” And so we tried stopping, but then we got in trouble for being bad friends. Oh. Because we don't know how to do it. And like, for that whole, you know, like we were talking about with your Loves, that whole withdraw and avoidance and going away. Like I don't want you to, my friend said, “I don't want you to forget me.” Like, but I don't know how to remember you, and the ways that I was trying before, I'm not allowed to do anymore. Hmm.
I can't, like, therapy is not my whole world. It's not my whole life. But it is a season where it is a really big chunk, and I can't talk to you about it anymore. And it was one of the big things where I felt safe to share you. And not that our whole friendship was built on that, but it was a safe place to talk about that if I wanted to talk about it with someone. And that was taken away because of circumstances, not because our friends did anything wrong. Yeah. But, but that took a year to get to the both/and of that to that. That yes, this changed. Yes, it's hard. Yes, there is grief. But also they're still good people and none of it was malicious. Yeah.
So when-, whose in the group and gonna be on the podcast coming up. Wait, I don't know if she says her name. [Laughter] Let me say. We're gonna have to edit that out of the podcast. [Laughter] When our friend from the communities sent us that book, and she's coming on to talk about Kellys, and actually how to file a complaint when Kelleys are not appropriate. Because it's part of the conversation that people need to know how to do when that's not appropriate. But when she sent me that book, the In Session book, and I read it, I was like, “Whoa, snorkels,” because of all these other therapy experiences that we've had in the past. And trying to sort out this Kelly that we've lost. Like, what is grief? What is hurt? But it's not harm. We learned good things from her. We learn good things from her. Yeah. And so how do we hold on to that, even though it feels like this situation or this situation or this situation? And we tried in the ways that we know how to repair that. But how is repair possible if we're not actually allowed to talk to her? And so. Hmm.
[Kim’s laughter] Yes, Kim. It is your turn.
So, is it appropriate from a clinical standpoint, if you want to repair? [Sounds of bottle being placed on table] [Kim’s laughter] What happened? It’s Nerd Town Kim.
I just spit water out my nose. [Laughter] Oh man.
Maybe I should hold on to that question.
Okay. sorry. I'm ready now. Go for it. I’m not drinking. I need a drink. But I'm not drinking. [Laughter]
Is the English teacher correct if you look at it from a clinical perspective, that you shouldn't be talking to the Kelly? Or, can you talk to the Kelly in order to repair? Like, that's all you want to do. You're not trying to talk to Kelly to rekindle and get back in, but to kind of bring some repair and [indistinct] move along through, or like ethically, or whatever?
Um. [Pause] Um…
I think I think that's a good question. I think this Kelly would say, “Yes, absolutely.” And I think that if I said, “I've messed it up too badly. I can't fix it.” She would give a line about second chances or something like never running out of second chances. Some corny thing like that, that she lives by to her core with every human on the planet. Like she just loves people well. Okay? You don’t understand. She's legit. So I think that he would be willing to offer that in that way. But I have literally done everything I know how to do. And when it's that dysregulating-. It's not that talking to them is dysregulating, it's the waiting and the silence that's dysregulating. It feels like-. So that's where it's a reenactment again. Okay Because what it feels like is my mother with the door shut. Hmm. Like, “I'm being hurt out here. You have to let me in because this hurts. And I'm not safe out here. And I can see that you're in there, but you have locked your door and you won't help me.” But that's not about my Kelly, that's about my mom. So repairing with my Kelly won't actually solve that. I had to do that in therapy. Got it.
See? I've done some work on this. Okay. I’ve done a lot of work. I mean, you got some work under your hat, honey. We’ve got you. [Laughter] Okay. I'm clear. That makes sense.
So I’ve tried my-. I’ve worked on it in therapy. I've said all the things I would need to say to her about what was hard about everything and how it was toxic for me. And that was very hard because I can only communicate on text because of my ears, unless they will do a Zoom call. And I tried several times to get them to do a Zoom call, and they maybe did three times or something. But they never initiated it. And they never, we never got to those conversations. Okay. And so like, I tried as hard as I know how to try. Yeah. And she, my Kelly, did not come to those Zoom calls. Oh. Because boundaries.
So she has said explicitly that even if we don't see her as our therapist anymore, she is always our therapists, even now. And so what she said is that he could be like an ally. But what is an ally if we don't have any contact? Or, like, she's out there supporting other people who are unwell? [Laughter] That's great. That's great for them.
But I'm over here. Hello. Yeah. [Laughter] Okay. I understand. Good, can you tell my therapist? You only do what you can do. Yeah. [Kim’s laughter] Yes. Yeah.
I tell therapists all the time about DID because they don't know. When I get in the office, they spend two sessions with me schooling them. So it’s fine. I know how to do it. [Laughter] You’re good, sister. [Laughter] Oh my.
So where we're at is, we finally have done enough work and enough therapy to know that none of these people were malicious. The only bad thing that happened was circumstances, not anyone's intent or fault. Allegedly, including mine, but we're not there yet. And that the reason it was so hard is that it brought up stuff from the past that I actually sat with this time.
So yes, the podcasts were dark. And yes, it was a hard hellish year. But also, the only reason I was able to sit with all of that was because of the work I had done with that Kelly. Like that's to her credit. Yeah. And the only reason I survived the last year while we missed her that month, was because of that Kelly and the skill she had given us and the hope he had given us. And I think that it was-. I was mortified how dark and difficult the podcast got. It was even worse in real life. You know what I mean? Like, like, that's real, but in not-on-air it was even worse. And I was mortified that all of that was shared. Except also, going back to the same thing, if this is a part of it, then we need to talk about this part too. And so that was awful. I don't ever want to be in that space, again, much less on my own.
But also I learned to sit with my feelings. And I learned to feel my feelings. And I've learned to tolerate my feelings. And that's huge. That's huge.
And, yes, ma'am. I have a lot of work to do in therapy. Thank you very much. But I have an outline now. For the first time. Not just like a map of my system. Oh wow. Not just a map of my system. But like the book is my outline, right? Like, I may not have all the pieces in order yet. But I know we have this piece, and I know we have this piece, and I know we have this piece. And I maybe don't want to look at those pieces, and maybe I don't want to feel those pieces, but I know what they are. And that's way more than I knew before that Kelly. Yeah.
So, yeah, right? So yes, it was awful. And yes, it was hard, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. I do wish I had a little more grace and finesse and friendship. But I don't. I don't have the experience. I don't have exposure. I haven't had the opportunity. So I'm like a preschool toddler, doing my best with a bunch of adults around me. Yeah. And so, I'm working on it. Yeah. But the things, the things that I learned over the last two years, I wouldn't trade for anything. Though also it was hell.
[Laughter] Well, I think that you're doing a great job on the friendship part, at least with me. I mean, we don't live near each other and seeing each other. But when we connect and talk, we connect and talk. And when we had the exchange about the question I asked, I was like super ready to repair. I was like, “Hey, are we good? Because if not, let's try to work it out, let’s repair it.” And I value what you bring to my life. And I'm thankful to be here. And I think for like, you can only do that. I mean, if you're a toddler, you're falling down a little bit every now and then, you got some friends over here in the community that you love. We just be like, “Come on. It's okay. You keep on walking. We got you.” [Laughter] Careful what you wish for, Kim.
I mean, you know. I think that you are, I mean, you guys are amazing. The book, the vulnerability, and even though the podcast during that time was dark and difficult, we stuck with you while you were in that place. And we waited. And we just kept on hanging in there, and listening, and emailing, and listening. And we waited for you to come out. And then you did. And now look. You got yourself a whole podcast community. You're doing your own thing. And I think it just shows the strength of when you hold on to someone, when you try to hold on and just, you know, give people the opportunity to come out of wherever they are. But the value of holding on as much as you can, and helping someone get through that place. And then when they're on the other side, you can celebrate each other, them for getting through it, and then yourself for sticking with them holding on to them while they try to get through their hard time. And that's how I feel like we, as your community, we did that. We held on for you. And we knew that there was some problems going off. We, of course, didn't know it was this. But we held on because you're worth holding on to.
That's a lot of love, Kim. That's why we can be friends, because we just talk to you once a year. [Laughter] See? It's terrible. We're trying. We're making progress. We've talked to you every year, Kim.
We do! Well, now we're talking a little more because of the platform. So we're, we zoom now more this year than we have all of the years we've known each other. So, hello.
That’s so funny. That's so funny. You know what, though? Seriously, even though the community is overwhelming and terrifying, because it is so much connection, and people are real there, and people are stepping up and being vulnerable. And it's like, “Wow, this is a lot. Is it gonna be okay?” And I feel so protective of it. But I'm also scared. Like, if something goes wrong, people are gonna have to work really hard to repair it. Can we do that? What is that going to look like? Do I even have enough internet to have a weekly meet up? [Whisper] I don't think so. [Laughter] That satellite gotta work. Right! It's scary.
But here's the thing. That's what I learned. Is that for me to heal, I can't just be left alone. And maybe it's no one's job to rescue me, but I'm only going to get better if I connect. And if that's true for other people, then we need to create spaces where we can connect. That's why we went ahead and did the community. Yes. Because with what I've learned, a podcast isn't enough. That is me talking to you. I mean, it's real and it's authentic, but it's me talking to you from my corner over here while I don't actually have to see you, and you where you can listen in your own space or not, and tell me about it or not, which is a great starting place. But that is not healing. Healing requires a connection. And so if we're going to practice that, we need community. And unclearly, we didn't pull that off where we thought we could, and we didn't pull it off in real life. So let’s just build one. I can't do Facebook. So let's just make our own and try. Like, let's practice. Yeah.
If I can't function well enough, and if I don't have capacity enough, to be friends with other healthy adults, then I will find people who are struggling like me and be friends with them in the struggle, the way that Kelly was with me. And just, we can grow together. And let's grow together.
I like that. Like when you say, “We're all learning together.”
You're so responsive. I've learned that about myself. When there is an attachment, I cannot hold onto it without responsiveness. It can be just as real, but it is so abstract to me, it doesn't matter that it's real. Because I can't see it or touch it or hold it or hear it. I don't, it is not like a behavioral thing, it is a capacity thing. It is a neurological thing. And so, I look for that because it's something that I need for healing and for the relationship to be meaningful. And you have always been so wonderfully responsive. So I appreciate that about you. And I love going to a conference and saying, “Oh, I've seen that. Kim does that.” That's good stuff. [Kim’s laughter] You get an A plus, Kim.
Oh, thank you. Thank you. [Laughter] It's the only way I know how to be. I’m responsive like that to like, my Loves. They're fine. When they come back. They're always like, “Why are you like that? Everything was fine. Like, I still love you. Everything is still good.” So they don't need the responsiveness. I need that.
Oh, that's absolutely a valid point too. I think it's been really hard for my friend. Because when those pieces shut down, it was hard for me to know how do I still be a friend when the only ways I knew how to be a friend have been taken away. Either because I can't talk about therapy, they're not talking about the podcast, and we can't see each other because of the pandemic. Like, I don't, I don't. It's a capacity issue, not a desire issue. So I feel that. I feel that. Right. And how hard it is to build a connection without connecting. It's really hard. And I think I think even without DID the pandemics been hard for a lot of people that way. Agreed. Agreed.
Well, thank you so much for talking to me. I really appreciate it. I love you, woman.
Thank you. I love you have a good night.
Bye.
Bye.
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