Transcript: Episode 338
338. The Drama Octagon, Part 2
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
This continues our conversation from the previous episode.
[Note: The Husband’s voice is in italics]
What do you think-. I mean, you're a man of faith. You've talked about your faith and you understand like the Jungian stuff with symbols and dreams and the universe and all that. What is it that you think that lined things out the way they did, however for whatever reason, or worked out the way they did so that you met my mother, but you didn't meet my father?
That is an interesting question.
Because you missed him by like a month.
I think, for one thing, that your mom needed to see what a marriage could be. Like what a husband-wife relationship could be. Because she certainly never got a healthy one. So I do feel like there was a lot in our relationship that was good for your mom. Like, I was able to be in between-. I was able to be in between the two of you in a way that gave you enough space to improve your relationship with your mom. I would say by the time she passed that you had a better relationship than even just a few months before when we when we got married. So I mean, if this was a story and I was just looking at types, then I would say it's just not what your father was in a position to need at that time.
That seems consistent with our faith tradition, though. Yeah. That he wasn't ready. Yeah. Especially if his last words were about not forgiving you. Yeah, that's gotten passed down well, hasn't it? [Laughter] “I’m not forgiving you or your stupid podcast.” No, his last words were, “I will never forgive you.” Oh, my mistake. That's therapeutic. And he was talking about the same thing is what this family’s saying, that I'm running my mouth telling my secrets. But they’re not my secret. No, they are not. I'm glad my mother made random confessions to you sometimes so that it's not just in my head. Right.
[15 seconds of silence]
I don't even know where I was. Well then say, “Just so you know, our recording just stopped.” Oh, yes. Do it. We interrupt this program [Laughter] to announce that we just had some technical difficulties with the recording device. And it just stopped and we were terrified that it was going to erase everything that we had just talked about. But it has not. It has saved it. Miraculously.
And I was like that was probably my father. Because he was an IT guy. Yes. And then I was like oh flip this grid. It was our Father who said, “No, we really need to talk about this.” And it saved instead of lost. I like that change in the story. Right? But that was crazy enough we don't remember what we were just talking about. I hope nobody was really excited to hear what we said next, because it's not gonna happen.
It's so hard when you record a podcast and so much happens between what they actually hear. And it’s like, well, I'm listening to it all at once. Can you just talk about it all at once? No, because that was a half hour ago, and I lost everything. [Laughter]
That was kind of weird. That is like ghosty. It was hunting. There has never been a time that my recording, that the app or the program or whatever has done that, and it didn't lose everything. Oh, wow. My friend Kim, that's how she had to record her episode like four times. And she did it. She kept doing it. I don't know why it was happening that day. We also lost the Bethany Brand interview that way. And I know you don't care about that, but let me tell you. Now it's okay with me, because she will not come back on and talk to me. [Laughter] Like, what did I ever do to you? Aww. I know. I really was excited about her work. And I was really excited about getting word out about it to the community. And I thought she would have better research participants if we did. And now she's like, “I do not have time for you, little minion.” That sounds so disrespectful. I don't mean it disrespectful. She's doing great work. Yeah. But I'm very was very disappointed in our interpersonal interaction. But that's okay. That happens with researchers sometimes. [Laughter] That still sounds disrespectful. I haven't fixed it yet. My mouth. I'd say it happens with people sometimes. [Laughter] And I am the common denominator. That's where we're ending up. I could just be kind. You are kind.
Okay, so, back to the story. Here's what it comes down to. Is I did my best with the book. Yes. You and I talked about every bit of the book repeatedly. Yes. There's lots we took out. Yes. There are some things we had to combine, not to make the story false, but for editing purposes. Yes. There is a lot of podcast that I haven't even listened to, because that's a lot of podcasts. [Laughter] I just do the editing around here. [Laughter] I mean, I know it's a lot of podcast. But we've worked really hard to not be disclosing names or targeting people. Sure. Not even Bethany Brand. Because it's not about that. It's not about causing harm or hurting feelings. It really, really isn't. It's about finding my own voice. And I am wrong about a lot of things in life. And I don't want to cause harm. But I also don't want to hold things inside. And if there are things in my head that are not my secrets, or even things that are wrong, I need to get them out. Because I’m not going to get better by being silent. Pushing the problem away, doesn't make it go away. And I have made enough progress to say out loud that you can't push me a way to make the problem go away, because I am not the problem.
Amen sister. Bam!
That being said, one of the most sad, gut wrenching moments was that they said they could not talk about it because I would gaslight them. And that felt so darvo to me. What is darvo? Oh my goodness. Get out of my house. Seems like a strange acronym for that. [Laughter]
So, okay, so I don't want to get this story wrong. So please, please, grace and forgiveness, because I'm wrong all the time and people will point it out. Welcome to my life with hate mail. But if I remember correctly, there was a woman who was a survivor, who was one of the first—maybe the first—to sue her parents. Okay. They in turn founded the False Memory Foundation. Ah. Okay? She grew up to be a researcher, and now does a lot of research. Also doesn't want to be on the podcast, but that's cool, whatever. And one of the things that has come out of her research is that she coined the term DARVO, which stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. So it is a manipulation strategy of psychological abusers, specifically, who deny what they're being accused of, attack the accuser, reverse so that they are the victim and the accuser is the offender. Wow. So where it's famous, where it's famous for happening, is in court cases. So like, famous trials of people who are being accused of sexual offenses or child abuse or something, making the accuser be the bad guy instead of the victim. Yes. Yeah.
So now all of a sudden, after literally-. What is? I don't know, how old am I? It's like, almost 20 years, if not more than 20 years, of saying, “Hey, we need to talk about this. This as a problem.” They're like, “Now we can't talk about it because she's gonna gaslight us.” So now I'm gaslighting them by saying, “No. I’m the one that was ostracized for speaking out, I am the one-.” But, but I don't want to talk about “I'm the one who.” Like, I'm not gonna. It's not a competition. Like we're talking about being healthy and not toxic. Right? Right. So this is part of it. It's not a competition. Right. Their pain at me speaking about these things is absolutely and entirely valid. Yes. Their concerns about my accuracy of expression in a black and white world is absolutely valid. I live with two boys with autism. [Laughter] They don't even like how I walk down the hallway. [Laughter] I get it. But also, their concern for respect of family, when they have worked so hard to create a beautiful family, is wonderful. And that's entirely valid. My family is founded on trauma. Not trauma, but the healing of trauma. And for our family, it's been very important to speak about what we're learning, and speak about the process, and to speak our truth. Yes. But also he will say I am not speaking truth.
I don't know how to gaslight that. No, okay. So, I'm tired, so I'm making light. But it's too important to make light. I don't want to make light of it. I want to-. Like, how do you apologize for that, or take that seriously, or hold that offering sacred? But without letting go of your progress, or being silenced, or going backwards? Like how do you do both? What's the bridge between there?
[Laughter] That's the microphone that is passed to me. Um, well knowing that this person is not in a position where he is ready to have an open discussion about childhood traumas. What comes to my mind is writing a letter, whether or not it's a letter that you ever send. But if you were to send it, you could probably say things in a way that could be respectful for both their pain and your truth, for your appreciation for them, and standing up for who you are. I don't know that's, it's hard to think of, if you don't feel safe to them and they don't feel safe to you, it's hard to navigate that bridge until both sides have found some degree of safety so that they can stand at the edge without feeling like they're going to be pushed off. Right? You have to be willing to face into that abyss without being consumed by it.
Like the monster on Lost? I will say, “Yes.” No, I mean it. Because all the people who ran, died. Yeah. All the people who faced it, lived. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. But if you need, if you need an opportunity to express those things, you could write them down and even just save it for the right time or never send it, just so that you can get them out. But in general, I would say in this particular situation you are doing the work you need to do to move on with your life and to grow, and he is moving on with his life and also has work that he needs to do. And sometimes, you might just need distance in order to be able to heal.
I feel like that's why I ran away when I was 17. Oh, it is like the 17 stuff happening all over again. [Laughter]
It's so hard, because you want things to be okay. Yeah. You want things to be better. And not just, “Oh, I want him to see my way.” I don't just mean that. Because I also want to see his way. I know that-. Well, here's what I know. I know that in our spiritual tradition, in our faith tradition, our spiritual understanding of that, that we have this concept that someday, in some way, we will see things as they are. Yeah. And we will understand what pieces I got wrong, but also why I got them wrong. And all my mistakes of failing, of why I shouldn't have written the book, or why it was good that I did. How it hurt his heart, but also helped a lot of people. Or how, for me it was just closure from a therapy experience. Or how I was trying to contain things in one place, and I'm sorry he got hurt in the process. Or all of those layers. But we'll also see not just the rightness or the wrongness, but those nuances you were talking about. Of how no, it really is true that our parents were abusers, because this and this and this happened. And the evidence of that is already before us, because otherwise this and this and this would not be happening now. But at the same time, he did these things because they were done to him. Yeah. And she did these things because she was dealing with this and this and this, and that's what was done to her. And the whole point is that people harming people causes more harm. And that we have to be gentle with each other, and we have to care about each other, and we have to tend to one another for people to receive healing.
So when you tell me you got these messages, part of my response is, “I can't believe this is happening.” Part of my response is, “How dare he? How dare they at this point?” Or part of my response is, like, I'm not gonna win, even if I said, “Oh, yes, you're entirely 100% right.” I'm not gonna win, because it's not about me winning. Yeah. They are not sending you these messages to support my healing. [Laughter] That is not the purpose of they're contacting you.
But what I choose to land on is that we love them. That they are also people who are hurting. That if we had grownups who tended to us when we were children, all of us, we would not be going through what we are now. And that there are parts of that that we remember differently. That there are parts that he's wrong when he does not see it, but not because he's malicious. And there are parts that I've expressed the best way I could, but not maliciously. And that all of it is pain. Yeah. And that all of it needs healing.
And I think that, I don't know, some people believe that when people die, they're just dead and it's over. Other people have some kind of afterlife theory, right? I think that if my parents, who are clearly messing with my phone and technology tonight, [Laugher] if my dead parents can witness all of this with that context of those nuances and being able to see all that there is, that what they would see is our hearts.
And I think that I'm trying to bring healing to the world in the little way that I know how, along the path that I have found for myself, as best I can. And I think that he is trying to bring healing by letting go of what hurts, or not dwelling on what hurts. And that I am sure that in some way that balances it out. Not for us individually, but together, like as a family, all of us trying our best. But we also have to heal individually.
And I think that when we look at healing from a way that's not toxic, then it goes back to what you said about leaving my previous Kelly. That endings don't always have to be disastrous. And leaving doesn't always have to be tragic. And so I can hear them say, “It hurts that you're talking about this. And some of it is not how I remember it.” But also see evidence of progress. Like they will-. Not him directly, but your message, your messenger, your mediator, referred to us as a system. Yes. Which is the first time anyone in my family-. And all of them know because of what happened when I was 17. But it's the first time since I was 17 years old that anyone in my family has acknowledged DID. That's kind of amazing. Progress. All progress counts is progress.
So I have not responded to them at all, other than I did contact the company that holds the deed for the cabin and said that I need to go ahead and have my name taken off. Because if they don't want anything to do with me, then I don't need to bother them with scheduling a cabin our family doesn't fit. And if that is the only peace offering I have to offer, then I would much rather choose peace than a cabin. Our house, like we've lived in a cabin for three years. And it's strange, because I had such an emotional experience leaving the cabin the last time. It was like I already knew that that was my last time at the cabin.
Okay, you're the profound one. Wrap this up with insight. Go.
Wigga wigga wap. Doing the insight wrap. And that concludes my rapping portion for the evening. [Laughter] What am I going to do with you? You want insight to wrap this all up? Correct me, heal us, be the rescuer, let's go. I think you're doing great.
Didn't we talk? Okay, I'm sorry I'm going back to this. [Laughter] I’m not even listening to you. [Laughter] Didn’t we include in the book our conversation about sorting through what's real, and how we remember it, and what was like a child's perspective, and what is-. I think so. Yeah. What is not real at all. Why is that a thing for survivors of, “This isn't real. And that is real. And that couldn't have happened. But this did happen.” And trying to sort through content? Why do we get focused on content instead of, “Clearly these were the dynamics or we wouldn't be acting them out now?”
Well, because some of you don't have any capacity to process the memories that they experienced directly in that sort of way. All they have is like the limits of a child's sensory experience. So I have this weird thing that you know about where I have some very vivid memories of being a very, very young child. And every once in a while, I get a glimpse into how young I must have been to remember this. For example, I remember being at church and rubbing my mouth along the back of the pew in front of me and doing like an experiment to see how it feels different when my lip is dry, versus when I'm using saliva to lubricate the back of the bench as I move my head back and forth. Yuck. Yeah, now I think about that is horrifying. And when I see a baby who is old enough to actually be rubbing their mouth on a bench, I think, holy cow, that’s a small baby. And so I think about that experience. And for one thing, I don't remember any other people. I just remember that experience, filtered through my own senses and my own thoughts. And I would guess, if I asked anybody else who was there, they would have no recollection of that at all. Like it's such a specific one person experience, even though the moment was physically shared with other people. And it's an experience that looking back on it seems so strange in a number of ways. Like I've read specific medical articles saying that people who seem to have memories from when they were little are really just making them up. It's not something we can physically do. And I think, “Oh, well, am I am I just imagining these weird things like?” So I, like, I questioned them too. But still, those memories are just sort of part of who I am and how I process my own past. So I can understand that there's in a more high stakes and complex situation than baby saliva lubrication experiments.
I feel like this would have been easier if you didn't use the word lubrication. Oh, I'm sorry.
So thinking of things that are less complex than baby saliva experiments. [Laughter] That there are, that it would be even harder to discern between what is true and what is imaginary. And then put on to the fact, put onto that the experience that you would have of shifting between alters and not every alter being able to retain the memories of something. And so like, even within yourself, you probably have sometimes conflicting ideas of what an experience was. So yeah, that would be really hard sorting through all that.
My greatest fear... Oh, this is gonna be good. [Laughter] …for the podcast... Oh. [Laughter] …and for the book was them finding it. So that means you have faced your greatest fear. How are you doing? Still waiting to find out the damage. So far you are you're acing this greatest fear thing. You are doing okay. Everything's just getting better from here.
There's also a part of me that's like, kind of like with the previous Kelly of, so, see, reenactments. Right? I'm finally finding out what is the thing that I could do to stop waiting for you? I just had to make that rhyme. I’m sorry. [Laughter] I was like, “Uh oh, what are you waiting for me?” No, of, like they, the rest of that part of the family has not talked to us ever, other than one of them came to the mother's funeral. Right? And that was 10 years ago. Yeah. And, a whole decade. That's not. Like, when I compare healthy or not healthy, and I don't mean to say your family is perfect. I'm just saying that you talk to your sisters every week even though they live out of state, and you're taking care of your parents right now even though it's a sacrifice, and that they participate. They send us Christmas presents, even though we can't afford to send them Christmas. Yeah, yeah. They send the children books, or they, whatever, you know. Your sister came and brought clothes for the children. And. Yeah. Just these, like, oh, they participate. And this, my family doesn't. Like, they don't participate because they already think this stuff me, even before I did what they were afraid I would do. Yeah. So like, who's acting things out now?
And this threat of, “Oh, you're doing what you did when you were 17 by saying these things and talking about DID publicly.” But if our family was healthy and nurturing and caring… It goes back to the same thing of childhood. Like, what's so wrong with me that you would have those, that I've been abandoned for 20 years? Oh, yeah. And now I'm all of a sudden in trouble for being gone. [Laughter] Like, if our family was healthy and taking care of each other, you would have supported each other instead of isolating.
Well, and it makes me think of when one of our sons got mad in the driveway the other day, and it was really about other feelings. Like maybe this isn't even about, I mean, I know it's about, I know it's about them finding the podcast and the book. But also, maybe he's just now saying the things that they wanted to say when we were 17. Oh, interesting. And it's just finally coming out. Like, maybe even for him this is progress. Like that makes me more want to just let him have his feelings, and let him say his things, and just—what does it say in the New Testament?—hold my peace? I just need to hold my peace. It sounds like you're checking your gun as you entered the saloon.
Oh, my goodness. I can't with you. [Laughter] I'm trying so hard. But also, okay. Speaking of saloons. As a person of faith who really needs a drink with this topic, but is sober 12 years now? This year, barely. But it feels like a mere 52. [Laughter]
I also want to take his concerns carefully to heart. Yeah. What do you say, take it, take them seriously. Take his concern seriously, and repent or apologize or correct my behavior. And, like, I feel all these things at once. This is part of the problem with getting better. I can't just be like, “Well, this part of me feels this, and this part of me feels that, and this part of me feels that, but none of us are aware of the other parts.” Like I'm feeling all of these things. Yeah. And you have so many parts that can all be feeling things independently, which must make an extra carnival ride-ish in there.
Right? But you say, you say, that like with forgiveness-. We've talked on the System Speak podcast before. You've said that with forgiveness, we can't actually-. First of all, forgiveness does not mean saying everything's okay. Forgiveness does not mean-. It just means letting go of control of the consequences. Right. Of letting go of being the one to deliver justice. That's all it means. Yeah. But you've said before that we can't actually offer forgiveness until we know what it is we're forgiving. Yeah, you can't both cover up something and forgive someone for it. You have to actually be honest about it for a full and complete forgiveness.
Right? So, so there's lots of layers to this, because I want to, I do, I am willing and want to fully acknowledge anything I need to acknowledge, to tend to what he needs me to tend to. But also I cannot continue healing by him saying what I can speak about or not speak about, or tend to or not tend to, or what is hurtful or not hurtful. His feelings that are important to me, or their feelings are important to me and their concerns are important to me, but also I don't feel like-. I mean, I mean, ugh. Clearly, it's implied when we talk about DID that abuse is involved. I am not a high functioning, never traumatized kind of Plural who just thinks my life is cool. I hate DID. I do not mean disrespect to any parts, but this whole thing about “Oh, it's just fun to be this way” has not been my experience. Okay? [Laughter] So just being present with my own healing process. I cannot get better if he is determining, or in charge of, what is significant for me or not. That is so 14/60, first of all.
If I can give sort of a personal example that seems to parallel this but without any of the like trauma underlying it, so maybe it's simpler to look at. I did something the other day, I guess a couple weeks ago now, something, that really hurt your feelings. What's? [Laughter] My feeling? Yeah. Did I tell you that? Oh, yes. You were crying. Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't remember this at all. Are you kidding me? No, I'm not. I'm mortified. I'm so sorry. Where are you sorry? I was the one that did it. I have no idea what you're referencing. That's okay. Now it's getting juicy. I’m awake.
So, I did this thing that hurt your feelings. And you felt really violated and a little betrayed, and… What? But the thing was, what I had done, had all of my best intentions in it. Like I was not trying to do something that would hurt you. I was trying to be helpful and good. And yet, the thing I had done had hurt your heart. And I felt awful. No!!! And like I apologized, and you acknowledge that you knew that my intentions were not to hurt you. And all I wanted to do was keep apologizing until you stopped hurting. I just wanted to make your hurt go away. But I consciously had to tell myself, like we've already had the conversation in which we talk about intent and what your feelings were, and what my intentions were, and all of that. And I literally could not help you feel better by apologizing harder. Just the more I would try to apologize, the more it would just reinforce the negative thing that had happened. And so I had to realize that in part my desire to apologize again and again was almost more about me trying to soothe my own feelings of guilt than it was about trying to heal you. And so I had to choose to just live in that uncomfortable feeling of guilt over having hurt you. Because you knew I didn't do it on purpose. And I knew that you forgive me. You were just sad. And so I just had to be in that place until you healed and I healed.
And I think about that in the situation that we're describing. Like, you have been doing all of this work. You've been trying to care for yourself, and to grow, and to progress, and all of these wonderful things, and you're trying to share your experiences and get it out into the world and support other people. And in the process of doing all these wonderful, noble things, someone else has been hurt in a way. And, like the desire is to fix it. We don't want him to hurt. We want him to know that we love him. We want him to also be able to make this progress. But the thing is, we can't do that for him. And so, to a degree, we have to be willing to just sit in the discomfort of knowing that we hurt someone that we love. And like confession is important. Like if we need to address and say, “Hey, this is what I did. I tried really hard to protect you from any of the the fallout of this. But I understand if you feel bad.” That is a reasonable conversation to have if that other person is able to have that conversation and not just slip into old patterns. But in the end, you really can't control someone else's healing. In the end, sometimes you just have to live in that discomfort. And it's hard.
I've been thinking about that as far as my relationship skills or lack thereof. [Laughter] Of course, I have no idea what you did to me. So that feels both super juicy and perplexing. I'll tell you later. No, it's okay. I'm just like, it must have healed fine, because I had no idea about it.
But anyway, relationship skills. I've been thinking about that because I struggled so much the last two years with my grief about what happened with my friends, and those friendships that didn't develop. Like, what we thought was happening, and everything that happened with the previous Kelly or therapist. Because that was such a difficult experience for me, and it was such a dark season, and so, so tragic. But also, now that I am pulling out of that, or on the other side of that, I thought, “How bizarre would that have been from their perspective?” [Laughter] And the more that I understand that that therapist didn't actually understand any of what was going on, like, they must have been really confused. And I feel terrible about that. Yeah. But it also confirms to me that leaving was the right thing because I really was that misunderstood. And I kept thinking, “This must be my fault because they're known for being so understanding.” Yeah. And so what was most healing for me was actually letting go of that, and letting go of trying to get it right. The harder I tried to get it right, the worst things got.
And I feel like this happens with my family too. Like they so don't understand who I am, and they so don't know me. Which makes perfect sense because they've not interacted with me at all since I was in Fifth Grade, besides like a random handful of encounters that were less than a few hours at a time, right? And so it makes sense. They don't know me because they literally don't know me. And so the harder I tried to fix things the way they would just be in my head, or the way I could imagine them to be, the worst things get because it doesn't match what's in their head.
Lack of congruence, as you would say. Incongruence? Discongruence? Anticongruence? You know, another time it happened-. Dysgruence. [Laughter]
Another time it happened, since we're talking about confessions, and cuz I was already rude to researchers. Which I apologize for. I'm actually a fan of researchers, well, part of me is a fan of researchers. You can't make her feel better. No. I can't. Okay. Terrible. Fail. Hashtag. Live in the discomfort. Ugh, it's so uncomfortable.
Anyway, another time that happened is when that person wrote in about the podcast, saying you shouldn't have talked about being suicidal on the podcast, or whatever. And my friend Peter had talked to me as a coping skill about when you read something damaging—maybe that's what we should have done with these text messages—that when you read something really hurtful like that, like the hate mail I get, that you should read it in a Mickey Mouse voice or something to like lessen the blow. Oh, interesting. Trick your brain into not taking it personally, you know? And we did that on the podcast and talked with you about it? But then, that, like they were really hurt by that. Yeah. Which was not your intention. It was not my intention, but it made things worse. And then I got like hate mail from their friends, and then their friends’ friends, and then their friends’ friends’ friends. And then they're like, “You should leave ISSTD. You're a terrible person. You don't belong here.” And things escalated like really big. And I didn't need to say any of that. [Laughter] Anyway. Anyway. So clearly, I'm a person who was born to not belong. Like, that’s how I feel. But I can either spend my life not getting it right and not belonging. Or I can find my own way, do my best, minimize harm, and ugly duckling it by finding my own tribe the best I can like. Yeah. Yep.
I don't have a need for people to like me. But because of fawning, when people are upset with me, I feel unsafe. Really, is what all that comes down to. And people are upset with me a lot. [Laughter] So I feel really unsafe. So what's happened is, I was like, “Maybe I need to leave ISSTD. Maybe I need to not participate in groups. Maybe I need to…” Like, all these things go old school in my head. Because I think if I'm the danger, then I need to stay away from people. Like that's where my brain goes. But that's a trauma response. Yeah. And that's not healthy. The same as setting Google Alerts on people does not make you a-. It's not the same as having a relationship. My therapists was like, “That is stalking. That is not being, having a relationship with a family member. That is stalking. We need to talk about that.” Like, “No. Where's the button I push that says this is too much. Let's dissociate that.” [Laughter] Wow. I said all that out loud. Okay.
So basically, there's nothing I can do about this. I pulled the book. I paused the book. Oh, for real? Why? Because I didn't, I really wasn't trying to harm them. I know. And that part is my responsibility if it caused harm. But we worked so hard to maintain privacy in it. Well, I tried. Yeah. I thought I was doing the right thing. Not putting the book out, or stopping it? Both. Well maybe both are. I got it out really fast to the people who needed it. Like, that's what dissociation does, right? In the brain, they say it puts the brakes on the fight and flight. Well, I am willing to respect your decisions. I am glad that you got the book out.
But if it's not good enough, or right enough, or true enough, or. Like, I don't feel like it's false. I feel like there are little pieces because of editing. That's what I really feel like our differences are, as far as the family perspective. There are some things that are not true because of editing. Not meaning the content is not real, but the way we had to express or combine. So, for example, some things because we had to cut out, or because of how we had to explain. Like, for example, without getting too specific or triggering, an example I can think of is that the bed crates, things? Cage things? Were actually happen at, um—a different location—a different location. But all of that backstory is too much for the book. Right. Or that it was not, that my father is not the one with the alcohol. And I'm trying to think of like what pieces he's going to be all freaking out about.
Do you remember earlier in our conversation this evening where? No. [Laughter] Where we talked about how when someone does not feel safe, then it is hard to live in nuance, and you need to be able to lay out all of the pieces and see them clearly. So I am getting the impression that you're not feeling safe. I don't want to go to hell because I published a book about my family. Going to hell is a good example of like a binary. Right? There's no nuance in going to hell. It's just toasty, toasty pitchforks. [Laughter] I feel like the more you're trying to avoid the nuance and lay out all the pieces clearly to justify all the details, the more you are replaying the old tapes of this is how they control you. Does not feel like that? Like in laying out a defense against how you think he's going to attack you, you are feeling guilty about doing the things that you think he is going to attack you for. Does that make sense? I'm really good at feeling guilty. Sure. It's what I do best, besides dissociation. It's skill number two. Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. I think your book is wonderful.
I think I have had to be prepared to be attacked. Literally, physically, emotionally, mentally. Sure, you've been attacked a lot, so that would make sense. But I just don't want to feel like you are attacking yourself preemptively. Don't do their work for them. But also, if you feel like pausing the book is the safest choice to do, I want you to feel safe. And whenever you feel like it, you can turn it back on again. So it's not like you've done something awful by pausing it. I was just surprised. But also, I think the book is wonderful. I don't think his complaints are justified in the sense that you have done something wrong. I think his complaints come from his own discomfort and vulnerability. Because I think the things that he is responding to are not actually things that you say in the book. That's what my therapist said. Yeah. My therapist said the only way he could have this reaction is if he has at some level an awareness that he's one of the abusers. Yeah. And I was like, definitely not ready to talk about that in therapy. Yep, that makes sense.
I feel like what's getting hard about therapy is-. I thought, I thought, well, let me let me say it this way. I thought what was going to be hard like four years, like five years, at least, if not more, six, seven, now. That's almost a decade. That's disgusting. All this time, I thought what was going to be the hardest thing in therapy was just saying. “Oh, yeah, that happened.” And seeing what it was that happened. And that was a hard thing. It was hard. But I feel like it's been harder to recognize that this happened to me from these people. A nuh nuh nuh. I said it wrong. I feel like it's been harder to realize how that felt at the time. Not just the content of it, but what the experience was. Because it's hard for me now. And thinking about myself younger than our children now. Yeah. Dealing with all of those layers as a child, and not knowing any of the things that I know now. Yeah. It makes sense I was crazy. That's what they always said, anyway. So maybe I lived up to that. That explains everything. That's what my father said. That was his theory in response to my diagnosis, when the school told him. He said that it was probably in my blood because of my mother. Wow. Had nothing to do with him at all, huh?
Well, that's the thing that baffles me about these comments now, is because that's the whole reason my mother left. Like, all of this time, when she knew all these things that were happening, didn't leave him, didn't leave him, didn't leave him, didn't leave him. But it wasn't until my dad did this to him, that my mother was like, “Okay, that's enough.” But it's him that he idolizes, and my mother that he says is the bad one. Interesting. Cuz she's difficult.
I feel like therapy just got real. [Laughter] I want the conversation to resolve it in my head. But I'm sitting in the discomfort, and so I'm like, “But wait. I still need my out.” So it doesn't feel good to sit in my discomfort, I feel like has been the lesson of the last three years. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Okay, discomfort it is. But you're not alone. I feel like we're doing pretty well for our relationship to be okay after even the last year, nevermind everything that happened before. Yeah. I love you. So much.
Okay, I'm done. All right. Say, “Peace out folks.”
Peace out folks. [Laughter] Do you pronounce the F and folks? How do you say-. Well, I don’t say, “Peace out oaks.” No, I guess I mean, [Laughter] I mean the L. Folks. I do, don't you? You say folks? What do you say? Fox? No, I say folks, but I feel like people around here say folks. I'm the deaf girl. I don't know what letters are in there or not. [Laughter] Just curious. Sometimes we have pronunciation discrepancies. Pinterest. You say Pinterest. I say Pinterest, yeah. It's Pinterist. I still disagree. That sounds weird to me. Okay, we'll go disagree all the way to the Walmart.
I was talking with my mom one time [Laughter] and I was telling her how there's some words that we pronounce different, differently. We pronounce differently. Differently. Mom looked at me and said, “Are you to just having to make up things to argue about now?” [Laughter] That's really funny. Oh my goodness. It's good stuff. Yeah. We're okay, baby. Yeah. We're okay.
Oh, this will be a great way to end the podcast. My friend Kim wrote and said we need to stop talking about our sexuality. It's too much information. Okay. [Laughter] I thought it was really funny. I was proud of us for thinking through things. I just thought we're making up a way to think through things. [Laughter] Let's just examine every level as long as we're avoiding therapy. There we go. All right. Thank you. I love you. I love you too. Aw, they can't see sign language on the podcast. [Laughter]
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