Transcript: Episode 340
340. Roomies
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[Short piano piece is played, lasting about 20 seconds]
[Note: Podcast host is in bold; podcast guest is in standard font]
Hi!
Oh my goodness. Hi!!! Hi. It's really you. it's really you. I can't believe it.
It's been like 20 years.
Oh, my goodness. I cannot believe it's you. I can't believe you found us. I can't believe I'm talking to you. And I can't believe you're like, “Sure, I'll be on the podcast.”
Yeah, I mean, I don't know what I can contribute. But, whatever.
You are a good sport. You've always been a good sport, though. I miss you with all my heart. That's wild.
I missed you too. That’s actually crazy.
Okay, so-. Oh, my goodness. So if there's anything that you want to say that, or that I have to say that I'm not comfortable with or change my mind, I can edit it out. So that's easy. Okay. If there's anything you're not comfortable with, just say pass, or tell me after if you change your mind, and we can edit out. Because I want you to be safe and comfortable. Seriously.
Right. Right. That's fair. Yeah, I got it.
And because we will mention the school that shall not be named, you don't even have to say your name or anything like that.
Okay, yeah. That's good.
I can't believe I can see you. I still just really, that's really crazy. Okay, so let's start there. How did you even find me?
So, I was, um, you know, I looked on Facebook, but I figured I'd never find you there, right? And so I was just like, “I wonder if there's somewhere else, like, you know, a professional profile?” I knew you had gotten into therapy. So I thought, well, “maybe I can find her like that way.” But I was like, “I don't even know she has the same name.” So I went with the last name I knew that you had. And I'd actually, I looked at it later after we talked about it more. And there that, was like, more just stuff about you. From some other? I'll have to send it to you. Because I'm not sure it was always, it was-. I'll send that to you so you can look at it. So you can see where it is. But it was a good thing for me, because it had all your podcasts and things on there, so I was able to find you. And I didn't really read that until later. And I was like, “oh, it's not really a positive.” It's just kind of like a, it's some kind of, I don't know, a trend to like some kind of organization that they're like, “oh, look out for this person,” kind of. But like, I didn't see that until the end.
Do you know what they are? It is under like a new name. Yeah. So they are targeting therapists.
Yes, that was it. And so that's where I actually found and it had links to your podcast, links to your, like, your books and some information. And that's all I saw at first. And I was going, “look, there, I found her.” And then I went back and looked for it again, because I was like, “where is this that I found, so I can at least tell her where I found it.” And then I looked, I actually read the whole thing. And then I was like, “Oh, that maybe she needs to know about.” So, this was looking at that more. So yeah, yeah, but I'm glad it was up there because otherwise I wouldn't have found it.
I am excited that something positive came out of me getting doxed.
Right? I mean, you know, at least because probably, who else is gonna even see it? I don't even know. Like, what, like it was rare. The only reason I found is because I picked up your name, and it's weird because like I don't even know. Like, I just put it in Google. Like, right? Like Emily taught like. And it came up with that. I was just excited. I clicked on the podcast. I listened to it. I was like that stuff really hurt. And then I found on your page the picture. I was like, “Oh my gosh.” Like and I goosebumps. And I was like, “Okay, well, this is a pseudoname. Maybe she has that one on Facebook.” And I was like, “There's no way.” And then I saw it and was like, “okay, it doesn't look like she uses this at all. I'm gonna friend requested, but I'm not gonna hear anything. But at least I know she's okay and she's doing well. That, you know, that's good. So we're there.” And then, so message me and I was like, “Oh my God.” So crazy.
I was like you. Because I just been doxed. And so all these people, weirdos are coming out and causing all kinds of problems and safety issues. But I'm like, I've worked so hard for my own voice. I'm not going to be afraid. So here I am. Well, that's not. I was afraid at first.
I was gonna say, once I, once I realized what that site was when I looked at it again, I was like, a little bit scared about it. Was like, “Oh, this isn't good. I wish this wasn't here.” But like, I wouldn't have found you if it wasn't, so like, it’s just kind of like, weird. But yeah.
Yeah. It's, they picket therapists who help survivors with DID.
Gotcha. That make sense. It’s awful. Yeah.
So, do you want to catch up to the present first? Or do you want to tell our story of school? [Laughter]
What's funny is actually I have just now in therapy started-. Which is part of what led me to think about it and like, start, you know-. And then I saw that car moving. Feeling like my brain is, my brain is ready to deal with stuff from school now, because I'm actually going through stuff in therapy about school. Like, this was a negative experience for me. And I like, I haven't talked about it. I'll see something, yeah, I went to school there. But like, I don't, it's like I shut that whole period of my life out and I never talked about it. I've just started going through it. So it's good timing for me, because I feel like I'm, I'm ready to, to deal with that. So yeah, whatever, whatever you feel like.
I think that there are so many people who have had some kind of version of religious trauma, besides the specific stuff you and I went through, that it's just, it's horrific. It's horrific. So I need to give some backstory a little bit because people listening can't see you or know who you are. So. Right. You and I actually went to college together. Like, undergrad, straight out of high school, college, running through the halls like crazy girls. Oh, I'm trying not to say crazy. I'm sorry. It's so offensive.
Oh, we were very silly. That like, it's so funny, though. Because I look back and I'm like, did that really? Did I really do that stuff? Like, I don't remember. It feels like it. You know, like, I guess with suppressing the bad memories, I suppressed some of the good ones too. So it's kind of fun to remember what we were like back then. We were fun. Yeah.
that's so funny. So what, even with me starting, what do you remember about what happened? Or where would you even start our story?
So, I mean, I guess the first thing I remember is, like, it was like my first or second week of school. You were a year ahead of me. If I remember right. And I needed some help because I ADD. So yeah, not neurotypical here, either. I was struggling with studying and stuff. And I remember somebody telling me, like-. I feel like I met you through ASL, which was awesome. And then you just offered to help me I think like with study skills, because I was not good at it. And I remember that and I remember getting to know you. But then it's like, the more I got to know you the more like, I don't know, like, it's like I was interacting with different people. But it was, this it was fine because it was still you and it was still, I don't know. Like, it was just cool. Like you were one of my best friends. You were also like a mentor. Like you were like a lot of different things to me, I guess. I don't know if that makes any sense.
It does. It's pretty special.
I really, really, like, I don't know. I've never had another friend like that, you know, in my life. So like, I felt like, no, we could be silly together. We could be serious. It could be anything. I don't know. It was cool.
Especially in that season when it was difficult for us for different reasons, I feel like we were safe people for each other when the world around us was not feeling very safe.
Yeah, that that is exactly how I put it. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
How did you find out about DID? I don't remember that part. What did you remember about that?
That, that you told us about it, me and another friend, my roommate. Who does also remain nameless. But-.
She does, just so you know, she does know about the podcast. I have told her. But it was so traumatic for her to that, like, not just not coming on the podcast, she doesn't even want to listen right now. Which is totally respect. But yeah, it was hard.
Yeah, yeah. Do I remember? I remember all the pieces, like fit together. I was like, “Well, of course. That makes so much sense now.” Why sometimes I can be playing with you on the floor in a tent. And then the next night, you're like tutoring me. Like I know, again, okay, that makes sense. And move on. Like, we just, it was like, that was just normal. And, but like, you explained it so well. That like, and I think better than anyone else could because you were living it right? And you were just understanding it like yourself. So you were like, figuring out, “Hey, this is what's going on.” And as you did, you told us. And so like, and this is one thing I really remember is that you told me that I was actually part of the figuring things out. Because you had taken me to the airport with some other people who will also remain nameless, because I don't talk about them. But you, I was scared, because I'd never flown by myself before ever. And I was just flying back home for Thanksgiving or something. And I remember I was terrified. And you gave me a stuffed bunny rabbit to take with me on the plane, like right before I left. And like I seriously was like, holding on to it for dear life when-. Because little planes like shake and stuff. So it was really scary. But like, I guess then you went back to those other people's house for dinner, whatever that you're talking about, you didn't remember any of that. And so that was like one of the things you told me like, that's something that they noticed. And I was like, that's crazy. Like, not using that word. But that's, that's interesting. You're like, that's something? I don't know. It's just one of those things I'll never forget. There's just moments, you know, that are like so clear, and that's one of them. Like that bunny rabbit was really cool. And it smells like-. You always use the like, vanilla, like, stuff on your carpet. Do you remember that? [Laughter] Vacuum it up? And it, like, I love, and I associate that smell with you. So anyways, the bunny rabbit smelled like that. I remember that. I don't know why.
That’s so funny. We didn't like the smell of the carpet, so we kept trying to change the smell in the carpet in the dorms. Yeah. That's so funny. That definitely have a thing for bunny rabbits. That's true. Yes. Oh, there's so many things happening in my head. So what I know, and what people who listen know-. I don't know. Well, first of all, let me back up. How much of the podcast did you get to listen to? Did you just listen to a little bit to see if it was me?
I just listen to a little bit. Yeah, yeah. I haven't had a chance because I'm going through a crazy time at work right now that's really difficult. I'm actually thinking of leaving teaching because it's really, it's just not cool right now. It’s stressful in, whatever. The pandemic? So yeah, so like just trying to keep up with like, I'm an EC teacher. So keeping up with IEPs and all that stuff. And it's, it's 10 times harder because of COVID. And there's all that going on. So like I've been dealing with a lot of things. So I haven't had as much time to listen as much as I would like to. But I've listened. So I really, really it was more just like, like you said, just to see if it was really you. And then I was like, “But there's so much,” and I was looking at the names and I was like, “I don't even know where to start.” That’s kinda where it was at with that. Yeah.
Oh my goodness. I’m trying to like stay present. Like, I want to jump through and like take you for a ride in the car. Let's go for an adventure. Right? Oh my gosh. We’ve actually written it all down. Oh, my goodness. Uh huh. I never saw that book. Well, we took that one down, but I put it back up. We had to take it down for a little while because of safety issues and with the family, which is an ongoing thing, as you know. Yes.
But anyway, so people who listen to the podcast, they know bits and pieces only because I talk about it as I'm learning. But I'm also really careful because I want-. Well, just legally, you got to be careful talking about people, but also, just for my own safety and because they're so scary. I don't want to talk about anything, right. It's just hard stuff. Right. But I found, so maybe-. It's so funny that I found you because I don't think I would have been ready to have this conversation like two years ago. But with covid-. I wouldn’t either. Yeah, right. So I think there's like a God thing in the timing or something. But anyway, about a year ago, I got in touch with a woman who-. Let me try to explain this. The English, it was my-. Um, it's Trixie. A woman who went to the church where I went to high school. Okay. And when we basically had to run away from home, like that church goal, one of those church schools, is who sent me to that college. And this woman that I found was like best friends with the woman that I stayed with the summer before we went to college. And so she's like, witnessed from an outside point, all of those things that we went through. But she was there and witnessed more of it because she had the same therapist that the school sent me to in Tulsa. Oh, wow. And when that therapist, like, basically moved me into her house, this lady who was also a patient. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we'll talk about.
I remember you there after I was not at school anymore. But that's-.
Yeah. This, this woman was also a patient of that same therapist and living at that house. Oh, wow. And this woman ultimately sued that therapist and that therapist lost her license, because you shouldn't have doing that.
No. Yeah. I was thinking about it. No. And I was like, “Did that really happen? Did I really go? Did, was she living at the therapist house, and did we go and spend the weekend there?” And I was like, “I remember this very clearly. I think it happened.” And then I was like, “That's not okay.” Right? And walk through that, like, unpack that like, I don’t know.
Right. So that woman who was an English teacher in junior high, actually. So I knew her and all these weird layers. But she sued that therapist. That therapist lost her license. But anyway, she came on the podcast and was like, “here's what I remember about that time for you.” And told like, how that family is the one who sent me to the college. So that's how I ended up there, which I didn't remember. She told me about things that-. Well, she talked about-. Oh, it's so hard to say out loud. She talked about how that woman that I had been staying with from the church the summer before school, told the Dean of Women, told the Dean of Women that I had been molested and needed therapy. That's what started it. Like enrollment line. Okay? And so, the Dean, who you know what I'm talking about, the Dean-.
I do. I have some experiences with her as well. Yeah.
That's trauma, right? Yeah. This Dean of Women said that for me to stay in school, I had to go to this Tulsa therapist. Right? Yep. That's where it started. But, um. That's crazy. Right? But I could, for me in my experience, because I had left home, if I didn't stay in school, I would have been homeless. Right. Like for me, I really could not respond to that because I didn't actually have a choice. So that's how I was getting sent to that therapist. But also, I know the people who listen on the podcast know, again, without names, that it was the psychology professor who likely diagnosed me and found the therapist in Tulsa. But then that there were some confidentiality issues with him and his wife who drove me to the appointment, basically, like, disclosing everything to all of my professors. Right. And I got demons cast out of me and things like that.
Yeah. So what I remember about that person that like, I remember me and my roommate. Once we were like, it was pretty much the three, we were like the three amigos. We did everything together. And often, often, we were sitting in that driveway in the car while you were in there for like a couple hours. And it's not your fault. But this adult woman knew we were out there and never invited us in or told us what was going on, or anything like that. And I remember that being, like, just weird. And it felt like she was jealous of us, like our friendship with you. And I got in trouble more than once because of the things that she said to other people who were in charge and everything. Like they thought I was like a mastermind. And I was like, I don't know, doing well, I don't know. We just, I don't know, like, it wasn't that way. You know, like, the biggest one was getting in trouble for watching a movie about DID in the library. And for some reason they thought that was my idea. It was not my idea. But like, I think that came from her. Because for whatever reason there was, I don't know, that there was just some unhealthy stuff going on there.
Very unhealthy. Very unhealthy. You okay? We don’t have to talk about it. It was very unhealthy. And she, the therapist ultimately that moved me into her house, thought that she was like, molesting littles. Oh. And that's why she wouldn't let us go back to school and basically locked us in her house, to keep us away from the school and our family. And when the school said she couldn't do that, and told our family where we were, she sent us to the monastery in Arkansas.
I remember that. You called me from there. I don’t remember it. I remember because that was the funniest phone call I've ever had in my life. You were so excited. [Laughter] And you told me you were rollerskating in the monastery. And I, and I wasn't supposed to be talking to you at that time. Because that was a time when again, because of things that other people said, and I don't know, I was some kind of bad influence. And somehow they thought that I was in touch with your family and like scary people. And I didn't know what they're talking about anyways. But they told me we weren't allowed to talk to you. Like because they would try to keep us separated. And that's when the car thing came up. Because you'd come up and like we'd like escape together because we weren't allowed to see each other when we were on campus. I think that was right before you went. But anyways.
Why? Why were we not allowed to see each other? And also we're in college. We're not children.
Right. They thought that I was, I don't know, doing something to you. Like, they thought that there was something-. First of all, they thought that I knew somebody that like was from your past or whatever. But literally, you had pointed him out to me in like, a subway once. And he looked super creepy. And I literally saw him from across the room and never talked to the guy. But they were convinced that he was trying to get to you through me or something. I don't know. I don't know all of that. Because I'm just sitting there going, like, “I don't know what you guys are talking about.” And nobody ever believed me. Talk about invalidation. Like, I was always in trouble and I never knew what I was doing wrong. Like, all I want to do is like go to school and be with my friends. So, like I don’t know what going on.
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
Yes, none of that is your fault. This is this is all stuff that was from the admin and the people who were in charge, because they were listening to the wrong people, you know. And I think a lot of that, again, comes down to this person who had that jealousy about, like, because our friendship was so fun. Maybe she wanted more of that. I don't know. I don't know. And now I won't, see, and I don't know what else was going on there. So I just know it was not, it was not fun to say that. But you are always fun. And I always was excited to spend time with you. Even if I wasn't supposed to. I didn't care.
Oh, goodness, it was hard. I don't know why there was so much drama, or why admin for the college was working so hard to get rid of us or kick us out. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, and-. Yeah. I don't know why we were not treated like adults. Like, I feel like that's-.
No. We were not. None of us were treated like adults. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
No. You’re not. Just one of those things in hindsight like that. Some of the things like I remember, being locked in my room in the dorm. And, like, things I look back, and that in this day and age, like, would never fly.
Right. And even then, like, we were living in the dark ages or something. Like, it was like, wait. Like, rewinding time, is like, stepping back into like, I don't know, something. Because then I went to college, like, in Indiana. Like, at a regular, like, a university. It's like, whoa, like, that's when I started to realize how messy it was there. I was like, it's just, it was so restrictive. And how do you expect people to grow up in that kind of environment? Like, it doesn't make any sense.
It was really, really-. I really think it's a huge part of some of my own religious trauma. And untangling, like, some version of God or faith or something, if I want to, like, a such a mess because of all that. Because that's all wrapped up into it. And I'm actually like, I don't know where you are in your life at this point, and no judging any of it, seriously. But my faith is really important to me. But I'm very, very sensitive about it and very, very careful who I talked to about it. Because I don't want that.
Right. Because I'm the same way. I actually, I went through a part where I kind of walked away from my faith for a while. For a different reason there than it was then, which was weird to me now, like, because I had to leave the school as well. But I just, like now, I found a place where I know it's safe. Like even when I didn't know what I believed, I could walk back in the doors and the pastor there would just put his arm around me and say, “I'm so glad to see you.” Like, and I could tell him anything. And he didn't ever judge me or tell me I couldn't be there. You know, that's my safe place right now. Like, and we're a really tiny group of people, but we're doing what I believe is what, what is our, like, fulfilling the know, like, reaching out to-. The community that we're in now has a lot of homeless in the population and we’re like, getting in there and trying to actually help these people, not just say, “I'm gonna pray for you,” and walk away. You know? And so to me, yeah, like, it's an essential part of my life. It always has been, but I almost lost it because of that time. Almost. And I definitely thought that I had failed God when I left there. So.
The amount of shame that was put on us, is just indescribable. And unless someone has been through, like religious abuse from a Christian sect. Like-. Right. [Laughter] A Christian sect that did this. And they have like a whole underground on Facebook. Have you seen that? Of survivors of religious abuse from that school?
No, but I would like to connect with others.
I an not in it now, because I just can't. I can't. But I have seen it.
Like I don't know if I'm comfortable as much lately. But I definitely would have want to see others’ experiences. Because for a long time, I felt like it was me. And I still struggle a lot with some of that. Like, I screwed up my whole life. But like my sister, even my little sister, when I came home from school, it was, it was probably a few years after. I remember her saying to me, “you were happy. You were, then you went to that school and you came back and you were all messed up in.” And yes, I have some trauma in my past, in my family and other things. But right now, I've dealt with most of that. And I still got anxiety through the roof. And my therapist and I are figuring out, “this is where it's coming from.” And I just started dealing with it, now. 20 years, 22 years down the road.
I still have panic attacks when I have to go to church. Our family, our family goes to church every week. Yeah. Really important to me and I'm trying really hard, but I still have panic attacks. And I, it's very difficult for me to interact with anyone in that kind of authority. Between what happened when I was little and what happened at that college, has been-. It's awful. It's so traumatic. And I don't know what heals that. I don't know, how do you talk about that? It's not something people understand or know how to talk about very much. No. I had, at that time, like I'm thinking, I'm thinking, um. I have a daughter that is a foster daughter. Right. An adult now, right? But she was trafficked here from Honduras. Oh, wow. And so, most people don't know about this, they just know about the little ones. She was trafficked here from Honduras. And so, because she's from Honduras we couldn't adopt her. But she's like, 23 now and we've had her since she was 15. Wow. And so, she's like, 23 now. And so I've watched her go through those developmental stages. And like, she has her own kids now. Right? So I'm a grandma. [Laughter] I've never talked about that on the podcast. But anyway, um, I've watched her go through those developmental stages.
Oh my goodness. That’s kind of crazy. To think that I'm old enough.
We're old now. [Laughter] Um, anyway, anyway, I've watched her go through these developmental stages. I think of my oldest daughter and what watching her when she was 17, and thinking, “this is how old I was when I had to run away from home and live on the streets, until I could figure out what my plan was.” I watched her turn 18, and the hot mess that she was, and thinking, “this is how old I was when all of that was going on.” We were children. Like we were barely adults. Yes, technically. But we were children. We should have had parents or teachers or someone who was intervening in our behalf or helping us or guiding us. Not a whole school of authority shaming us for struggling when all of this was going on. Right. So at that time, when I was 17, 18, 19, I had run away from home. I had been through this whole drama with my biological family. I had safety issues. I had someone stalking me. I had a therapist that was telling me that my driver that I was alone in the car with for hours every Monday to go to therapy and hours at her house, that this person was taking advantage of parts of me I didn't even know about or couldn't remember or get in touch with or know how to what to do about that. I had this psych professor telling all of my parts to all of the school. I had the dorm locking me in, keeping me apart from my friends. Like, no wonder I felt crazy. Like, using the word crazy. No wonder we couldn't figure out what was real.
I, I think of it like it's like the Twilight Zone. Like really? I mean, what we accepted as normal, was not-. lLike, you just accept what you're living through. Right? And it doesn't make sense. But then when I when I look back on it, I'm like, if I tell someone else this story they’re not going to believe me, because it was so weird. Like, why we did that even happen? And yeah, but when I was there it was that was just life. Right? I don’t know.
What else do you remember?
I, it's hard because like, there's so many things. I remember really trying to, I don't know, just wrap my mind around what was going on, but not knowing who I could talk to because, again, like, I didn't want to tell people anything that, you know, because-. So I pretty much could talk to that one person because you talked to us together. So we all knew the same stuff, right? But I wasn't going to talk to someone else about you. So I had better boundaries with the teacher. That's interesting, now. But like, but it was a lot. And now I look at them like they, all these adults, they knew that we were dealing with that too. And again, they didn't step in and try to help us understand it, right? They just said, well, we're just leaving that alone, you know? And I had never thought about that. Like, no, they shouldn't have all known about it either. But if they could see that, but then they just like, didn't try to help and say, hey, well, maybe these girls need some, like, something to help them to figure out what's going on, you know? I don't know. Like, it just was weird that they didn't. And all I remember is negative, like, as far as the, like you said, the shame part, like you're doing something wrong. Like, you're like, I never saw those people unless they were telling me what I was doing wrong. Right?
But I remember, I don't know. Like, there's, there's bits and pieces because I'm still, like I said, I blocked it out for a really long time. And it all just started, like, flooding back in the last-. I mean, this has been within the last month that I'm starting to remember this stuff. Like this is very fresh for me, like really dealing with it. So it's hard because some of the memories aren’t very solid. Like I said, there's like, pieces where it's like, it's so clear. Like, that memory at the airport. Like I remember that like, like, I could be there. Like I could go there in my head and be there, sense everything. Like there's some things like that. But like, then there's a lot of just more, it’s fuzzy. You know what I mean? I remember being at the Subway a lot, because I think you work there. And we went there to hang out while you're working. I don't know.
You know why that happened? How that came about? It’s because after I'd got back from the monastery, like when I ran away from that therapist. Because I was like, “This is not okay.” I was not-. I was so excluded there. And she was-. This became a pattern for me later, I had to work out. But anyway, she was known for being good. Everyone thought like, she was doing so much good to help this poor stray child. I remember when she called me her mutt. That’s not right. I was like, “I’m not a mutt.” That’s horrible. Anyway, I realized it was not healthy, and I had to run away from there. I had to get out of there. Because it's what I do. I ran away. And so I ended up going back to the college. Because where else am I going to go? Right? But maybe, I mean, now I know that was not a good idea. But at the time, like where else am I going to go? So I ran away and went back to the school and did like a whole other school year, which was a disaster. But when school was going to get out, I couldn't go back to that house. Like I was homeless. And they bounced me around professor homes for a couple weeks. And then they were like, “Here's an apartment. We've paid only for the first month. And here's a really bad car that's going to catch on fire a year from now and burn your legs, but whatever. Oh no! And you have to pay for this. So we got you an apartment across from Subway so that you can walk there.” Cuz that was before the car.
That's why you were working at a Subway. I just remember you were. We came back to school-. Because that was like over the summer, I think when you got the job, right? And we came back to school and then you were at the Subway and we just like, that became my new spot like this. Which is kind of fun. Only because, I don't know. Some, I don’t know, that was weird. I didn't know that part of it though. Cuz, yeah. Like, I knew you had an apartment. But yeah, I didn't know the rest of that. Like you didn't know what happened to you that summer. Because I went home. Right? Then came back. And I was 10 hours from there. So.
I remember that they had so many secrets. Like they held so many secrets. For people who were supposed to be purifying us, they had so many secrets. Right. We tried to say-. They asked about why we were staying with that therapist instead of coming back to school. And it's like, well, “she thinks the professor's wife is touching me inappropriately.” Like, what why I supposed to say? And so like I say that and their response was, “Well, we think that you're being, like having inappropriate relationships with your friends.” We were are so innocent. Of all the people, we were such prudes. We were so traumatized already.
That, that made me remember something now, just now. Because, okay, so remember they wouldn't let me see you. I remember one of the things they say, I think you told me that they said this, but like, they didn't even tell me why. Just, we’re not allowed to see her. But I think you told me that they had said something about me being in the room when you were getting dressed. And I do remember that because we were just talking, or whatever, and you were getting ready to go somewhere. And it's not like, like-. I always would look away, whatever, I was in the room. But I remember that other, that other person that you were talking about came to pick you up at that time, and saw that I was in there with you. Like, while you were getting ready or whatever. And she said something about it. But yeah, that's where they came up with that. Like, and it had nothing. There was no validity to it. But I remember that that was part of the reason that they told us we couldn't see each other. You like, hang out because they thought. Again, that it was, that crazy. Again, right? Use that word, but I don't know how you can not because everything that happened there.
It's a lot. Well, and just, I mean, again, in context, like, it was a college dorm. There were girls running around there, after showers and doing all kinds of stuff trying to get ready in their days.
Remember, when you got dressed, like, you would still even be like careful with-. You know what I mean? Like I would not be looking at you. Like, that's just the way we were. Like you said, we were prudes. Like, I don't, I still to this day, like I never liked getting dressed in locker rooms or things like that. Like I never, like I was on the swim team. And we had one of those-. We had two bathroom stalls that had no doors on it in my high school. And I would go behind one of those and hope that nobody came back there while I was changing because I couldn't change in front of the other girls. Like, that's who I am. So like, the fact that they even thought anything like that. It doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, the whole experience was very DARVO. Do you know about DARVO? No. Like, it's this term about betrayal trauma where they Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. So every time we tried to say, “what you're doing to us is not okay,” they denied it, they attacked our character, and then they reversed it to where they were the victim and we were the naughty naughty people.
That's interesting. You know? Wow. Yeah. That's pretty much what they were doing. Yeah. And that's what, that's where I got that feeling of always, like, “I did something. I don't know what I did. But they're mad at me about it.” And like, I, Yeah.
Well, and what you said earlier about why wouldn’t anyone support us? Why wouldn't anyone help us? They weren't trying to help us. They were trying to make us obedient.
That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, like, the way that, the way that even the dorms were. Like, we didn't have TVs in our room or anything like that. And at that point in time, that would have been normal. Right? Like, I'm okay with not. But it was like, so the only place you could go to watch anything was in the lobby of the dormitory, right? So like, even that feels controlling to me. You know? Like, just, all these things were like-. You had curfews and stuff. Like, I've never been to a college where they have curfews beside that. I’m sure, probably mostly Christian colleges do. But like, you, still, it was just weird. Yeah. More like controlling. Like, trying to, trying to get us to do exactly what they wanted. Which is crazy, because all I wanted was to please the adults and the people in charge, and I couldn't do it. It doesn’t make any sense.
Yeah. I’m trying to jump back to safer material for a minute. What you said, when you looked at the podcast, you recognize names. What needs to do recognize?
I do remember. So I remember that. I mean, I remember the names. Is it okay for me to say them to you? Well, I guess you can edit anything out. Right? Right. So I remember Kris was the smart one that was like, I believe she was 21, like your age would have been at the time, and was the one that tutored me. [Edited] was the fun one that was like 17 or something. MK was the little one that I loved. Like, she was, oh my gosh, my favorite to hang out with her, I remember. Katie. I think there was one called JohnMark that I saw some of the time. I know that there was talk about the baby, but I don't know that I ever met the baby. And that's all I can remember right now. But like those were the main ones I'd say that we kind of hung out with. And it made so much sense to me when I, when it was explained to me. That I was just like, “okay. Oh, that, that's good. Okay.” Like and it just, I accepted it. I don't know. That wasn't weird to me, that part. Because I'd already been accustomed to just adapting to who you were. I guess, if that makes sense.
It's very kind of gracious of you. It shows a lot about your character, both then and now, that you continue to be so kind to me, I just want to thank you for that. You’re welcome. There was a lot of name confusion. One of the things that happened while you were around is that the professor and his wife tried to adopt me.
I thought they did. Because I remember you had their last name for a while. That I remember. I do remember that.
Yes. They did! Yeah. And so our name got changed then. They changed our name.
Yep. I thought that was a little weird.
Yeah. It got weirder. It got weirder. So when we left that school, we're actually nannying for a girl with autism. Okay. And so that family was like, “No, those people are super weird. And so is the therapist where you lived. You just need to not go back to any of those people.” And they hired a nun—more Catholics, right?—they hired a nun to change my name again, so that it wouldn't go with them. So that legally, there would not be any attachment to the professor and his wife. So then my name got changed again.
And I, I do remember when it was changed again. Because I was still in contact with you, then. I remember that, like, I didn't know why.
Yeah. They would not let me have contact with anyone from the school. Which is basically how we started losing contact. So then here I am, at this point like 24 years old, once again being held in a house against my will. My name legally changed. People telling me I cannot have contact with people that I know or care about. Completely-. Like, how does this keep happening and I'm 24 years old?
I can't even imagine how you're feeling then. Like, wow.
The only thing that was relief to me was that I knew both of you, you and your roommate that we're not mentioning, you and your roommate both got out, like away. Yeah. And so I knew that you were safe. I was not so safe.
That doesn't, yeah, it doesn't sound like you were. Like, goodness. Like, I can't even go. And then through all that you still got, like went back to school, got your PhD and like. Which doesn't surprise me. You're one of the smartest people I know. But like, seriously. If you think, gosh. Yeah, I didn't know. Cuz I think my parents kind of, like, wanted me to kind of not talk to people from there for a while. But it wasn't like, “you can't.” You know what I mean? Like it was more like, “let's get some space from this place.” But that I know why now, because my mom shared with me later that Bob, who was the, and he was a doctor. He, I, they took me there when I had to go somewhere, to the hospital or whatever, took me to their house. And so he, they knew what was going on with me. And he and his wife, like they told my parents to get me out of there. Like it wasn't a safe place for me. So that's interesting to me. Like, I didn't know that till years, years later. My mom told me that.
I'm glad someone did.
I mean, they basically told me to to-. Like, the school basically told me, “you can come back when you're better,” or whatever. Like they basically kicked me out anyway. But like these people said, “Hey, this is not a safe environment for your daughter. Get her away.” So they were kind of-. Like, at least they let me stay in touch with my friends. But they kind of were, they were apprehensive about me go-. Because I went back to get some of my stuff that had been left there, because I mean, I had to leave quick. And that's when I think I went, I met with you and that’s when you were at the therapist’s house and we went to stay there. And I, and I came in, my roommate who had left before me met me. And so we all kind of back together really quick. But they were afraid to let me go cuz I drove out there by myself. But my parents, like so they were apprehensive about that. They voiced that. But they didn't say, “Hey, you can't.” You know what I mean? There's a difference. There's a-. Yeah. Like, “these people aren't safe, but like, we're gonna let you make your choices,” kind of thing. But they didn't, you know, I don't know how that-. It's weird to me that they didn't go with me, now that I think about it. Because that was the summer after I left in like February. They let me go and trusted me that I was going to be make good choices, I guess. Whatever.
I do not watch a lot of TV. And during the pandemic, obviously, there was so much time to wait, right? But, um, one of the things that happened during the pandemic was my husband—I have a husband, that's a whole different story—he-.
Yeah. I saw you, in some of your bio and stuff, that you had, you know, kids. And that so crazy to me. Like, oh my gosh. I'm jealous, cuz I don't. I have nieces and nephews through. They’re awesome.
Oh, my goodness. I will tell you all about it. But my husband said, “Hey, I found something for you to watch.” Now, anytime he says this, it's always the most bizarre thing. He writes musicals, my husband. Okay? He's a musical theater writer. And so he wants to show me something? It's something he wants to adapt. And it's going to be something crazy and bizarre. And I'm going to be like, “okay, weirdo.” Whatever. But this time he goes, “they've made a show about your college.” And I was like, “what?” And it was Handmaid's Tale. And I was like, “I can't watch this. It's too real. You don't understand.”
Maybe I don't want to, right now, actually.
No, no, no. And I couldn't, I couldn't. But I'm just saying, like, listeners who understand at least what we're referencing, even if they haven't seen it. Like, that's what it felt like. We could not get away from these people. No. You don't have to watch it to know I’m saying that we as adults could not get away from that place. You know, when they, talking about they told you you could come back if you got better. What they did to me was they said, “We know that you are smarter than us. And so this is not open for discussion, because we know that you will be able to talk your way out of it.” And so they just gave me a list. And to prove that I was sane I had to provide a stack of documents, everything on this list. So things like that I had been to the monastery, that I had, that this therapist was still seeing me, that I had, I had to give them not just, I had not just like a note from the doctor, but also receipts for my medicine and things, because I was very sick at the time. I had that infection. And, and I had to show all these things for that. And I had to give them all these things. But I didn't know what else to do. And I, by that time, I was like, in my senior year, double major, spring semester, a month away from graduating. And so I did what I had to do just to get out of school and handed them the entire stack. It was all there. All of the documentation. Everything. And they were like, “No.” And they held a meeting and called in my parents that I had run away from six years before and they gave them the entire stack of paper. They gave them all my journals from that Dean of Women, “fake therapy, I don't have a license,” and all those essays from the English teacher. Whoa. Where she was like, “Your essays are so good. Your writing is so good. You're going to be a writer. I need to hold on to your essays so that I can share them with other classes.” Nope, she gave them to my parents.
That's the worst thing I think I've ever heard. You had allowed me to read some of your writing. I don't know if it was any of that, that you wrote your essays. But, I know, I think it was something for English class, whatever, for college. Like, and your parents having that is not a good thing. It's not okay.
And a copy of the map of our system, of like our DID, all the altars and their names and ages. Everything. They gave them everything.
That doesn't even make any sense. Like, why would they do that? But now, I'm really feeling a lot of emotions about that right now. So.
Even if I take it. Like, even if I tried really hard to get from their perspective and squeeze myself into their little box, I think they thought, like, “Oh, parents. So parents can solve this problem.” But my parents weren't like that. And my parents weren't together. I hadn't-.
Didn't they know enough about your parents to know that wasn't an option? Like, that doesn't even make sense that they did that. What, what were they thinking? I don't know. I'm sorry. Like, I'm just still trying to process that.
It was so confusing. And so now, my, I don't know how to say it, is angry at me because I have, because I'm talking. They found the podcasts. They have found out about the podcast and also the books. Which is from those essays. The books developed from those essays and ultimately journaling in therapy. All of that edited and put together is where the book came from. And they have that and they're like, “No, that's not what happened.” Of course they are. And I don't remember. But also, they don't understand all that was going on. Yeah. So they're mad at the therapist that took us home. They're mad at the English Teacher, the one that was also living there. They don't understand that the school was not safe, and don't understand me at all. But I had no contact with them since then, like since I was 17, other than these brief encounters where I'm in trouble, just like at the school, right? Wow. I'm sorry, we can talk about something else. I don't mean to.
No, I'm just like, it's just worse than I thought it was. And that's-. I think I knew it, somewhere deep down. But like, I wanted to believe that they had our best interests in mind, kind of thing. But like, I can't. Like, I can't make that fit right now. You know? And then that's hard.
And it's, and it's really sad. Because my biological family that's left, like, I would want to protect them and help them and connect with them and work through this. But it's like, “you don't understand what I was going through. And you're not hearing that or receiving that. And you telling me that I'm a behavior problem is the same thing that the school was telling me about my family.” So like, I can't. The only options I had as a young adult, between therapy school and my family. It was like they, I was in trouble with all of them for the same reasons. And also being actively abused by all of them in different ways.
Yeah, that's. I'm really sorry that that happened to you. You know? And that you didn't have an escape. I wish I could have taken you home, to my-. Like, we could have found a somewhere, place, just to hang out, just like me and my roommate. And we could have just like, found a safe place like in-. Just we've always-.
You, we would, you would not have been able to finish school because we would have been just having too much fun. We have six kids all adopted from foster care.
That's awesome. So amazing. I think. Oh, I'm sure. That's something I'm thinking about doing. foster care.
They all have IEPs.
Yeah, I was wondering about that. Thought about like, well, maybe what if, what if I mess them up? Right? What if they get like all the bad parts of me? Like, what if? What if I do, like I can't do? And somebody said that if you love them, you're gonna give them more than what they have now.
Can I tell you something?
You know? But like that fear is still there, though.
Can I tell you something? Yes. There are no bad parts of you. Oh. Huh. Even if you have access to all your parts. And I don't know. I'm not trying to get nosy into your therapy. But whether or not you have access to all the parts of yourself or not. My husband always says he's got parts, they're just all in a fish tank together. So he just sloshes around. I like that. He doesn't have DID, so he says he has an associative disorder, because he does not have DID. [Laughter] I like that. But all of those parts of you, I promise are there for a reason. And some of them are hurting because of that stupid school. But it's not your fault. And you're not bad, no matter what they said.
Yeah. That's the, that's probably the thing that I'm still struggling with the most, is feeling like there's something broken or wrong with me. You know? And I think a lot of that-. I mean, some of it started before then. Because of the ADD, because of the feeling, you know? There was some of that. It was there. But they just took it to such a new level that it's like healing from it is gonna take a lot longer. You know? I'm sure you can relate to that. Those kids that you have are lucky to have you. Because, I don’t know.
Do you know why they’re lucky to have me? Because I had you. I just want to thank you for being my friend, really.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, through all these years, that's one thing like, knowing that there's people who are, you know, who love you for who you are. It's a big deal. You are always that for me. So finding you has been like, super awesome. Thank you for linking it up. I hope you're okay. You got-.
It's hard. There are things I did not remember until I saw your face. Yeah. And there are things I didn't remember until you told me other things. And it's all kind of blurry. Yeah. But the feelings are big. It's very yucky an scary.
Yeah. So definitely do something fun and enjoyable right now. Yeah, coping skills. I don't know, or whatever. I don't have my guinea pigs anymore, but I have enough people that I pet sit for that I might have to go see somebody tomorrow and be like, “can I just play with your dog?” Yeah, cuz that's awesome therapy.
I'm so glad you found me. It's amazing.
Me too. It was like, like you said, it was a God timing thing. Like, I don't know that I could have been ready for it, you know, before.
What did you think when you when you found me, but then saw like the DID, the podcast. Like what were you like?
I was kind of like, “wow.” Like, I was, I was a little bit shocked, though, that you are sharing that much and stuff like with. Like, I was like, “that's really brave.” Like, “wow.” Yeah, that really amazed me. But I mean, it's so good that people can learn from it. Like, and I'm hoping that it's making an impact and people are understanding more because of it. You know what I mean? And like, just being encouraged and, yeah, cuz.
Well, you know, like, it goes-. Really, I'm doing the podcast because of what happened in college. Like everyone kept taking my story away, right? Yeah. Everyone kept silencing me. Everyone kept telling my story for me, and no one would let me do it myself. Right. So I do now.
I love that. That's pretty awesome. And it's pretty, like I said, “brave.” You're like, one of the bravest people I know.
Ovaries, baby. Ovaries.
[Laughter] Awesome. I like that. I have not heard that before. [Laughter] That was really cool.
I’m so happy in my heart to see your face. I love you forever, and I'm so grateful to hear from you, to see you, and I hope we can talk some more. Not necessarily this stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. We just have to catch up more. I want to hear more about your kids and all their like, I didn't know, personality, I guess. I'm sure they have that.
There is so much. I have triplets. Wow! 13 year olds. One is deaf. One has autism. One has cerebral palsy and Spina Bifida. Wow. And then twin nine year old—I have to think—nine year olds, both have fetal alcohol. So like lots of tantrums and stuff. And one of them also has autism. Wow.
So I've worked a lot with kids with autism since, that's like my, I just connect with them. I don't know. I love them. They're like my favorite peoples. So.
You've always been great with kids. And then our sixth one, our youngest one, is six. And she has a complex airway. She was born without an airway because of drug and alcohol abuse. Like they had to create it. She's lived in a hospital for five years. And then the pandemic happened, and it was horrifying. So we had to move to the country.
Gosh, because if she gets sick, that would be, wow. That’s scary.
She had a G-tube and oxygen and everything. It was a nightmare. But she's doing really well. And we were super careful. We were in quarantine for 21 months until we could get her vaccinated.
I bet. Yeah. I mean, you have to keep her safe. That's, wow. Oh, my goodness. That awesome, though. Like, I bet they're amazing. Is been really great.
Oh, you filled my heart. I'm praying for you. I love you, truly. Thank you. You had so much courage to talk to me and so much courage to be on the podcast. And I'm so so so grateful. And if there's anything you want me to take out, just message me and let me know, and we can edit it. But I'm grateful. Just trying to put my story together, and there are pieces where I'm like, “I don't know. Real, not real?” Like, what? “Can this really happen? No, it really did. These other witnesses saw.
And I got some things like that. Like, yeah. Because like, there were things that I was remembering. I was like, “Did that really happen? I don’t think, yeah, you're thinking that it did. So okay.” So it’s not as crazy as I thought in my head. Like, wow.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much!
Forward says, Good. Good.
Well, thank you.
And I hope all the people out there listening to the podcast can learn something positive, and take with this that it can be resilient, no matter what you've been through. There's never a point you can’t heal from it. You know? I think that's the-. Yeah.
If you and I can hold on to that we’ll be okay.
Yeah.
I love you, bye.
See you. Bye.
[Break]
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